04-02-2002, 05:17 AM | #561 |
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Sheesh what an article, patronizing, arrogant and completely confused.
I must say that dinosaurs on the Ark seems like a very original idea. It's been a while since I heard one of that calibre. The mere effort of Crickhollow stating that makes this article ready for the wastebin in a second. Well done!
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04-02-2002, 07:13 AM | #562 |
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And God said, Let there be light: and there was light Now someone needs to answer my question. Did God say "Let there be light" before or after the creation of light, or is he always saying it (as a changeless being)? How can God be changeless? God said "Let there be light", and straight after he saw the light and it was good. Clearly God would not have seen the light before he had created it. Also, there is a sequence of events here. Look at the wants of God: He wanted to create light. He created light. Now does he still want to create light? No, he has already created light - it is nonsensical to claim that God wanted to create light after he had already created it. Thus the want to create light exists no longer - it is now clear that Gods mind has changed its state, from wanting (x) to not wanting (x) - this is a basic example of God changing, but more importantly, it shows God as part of time. |
04-02-2002, 07:17 AM | #563 | |
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04-02-2002, 08:55 AM | #564 |
The Original Corruptor
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Oh well, if some people want to believe that the effect came before the cause, let them. Oh, wait a minute, God was the cause of the light - so cause and effect remains intact.
A question: Can we, as theists (), really be sure that stars exist? I mean, God could have just created the light emitted and not the emitter itself... |
04-02-2002, 09:19 AM | #565 |
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God is outside and in time, so he said it. But "light" deosn't have to mean "light" as in photons etc.
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04-02-2002, 11:06 AM | #566 |
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Then what does "light" have to mean, if it doesn't have to mean photons?
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04-02-2002, 12:03 PM | #567 | |
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(tho' truly i know peoplel who believe this. I'm not as original as you credit me to be)
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04-02-2002, 03:17 PM | #568 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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Light could be symbolic of God lniking is infiniteness to the finite. Light is by its very nature ephemereal but emphatically there-like God.
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04-02-2002, 05:16 PM | #569 |
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the reason i don't believe the any sacred text is the same reason i don't believe mother goose
i think the only difference is that myths are just religions that no\one believes in any longer
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04-02-2002, 07:37 PM | #570 | ||||||||||||||||
The Insufferable
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Yawns and stretches...
I missed you guys! April Fools. ]: ) Er. Anyway. I'm back. Although I have a feeling that this post is going to be painfully long... Beginning with the last unread post: Quote:
Those are the kind of thing I meant by 'traits'. Bat word choice. Shame on me. I do accept that mutations occur. Through Inversion, Deletion, or um... was it Transmission? But the massive amounts of new information (as opposed to shuffling around old stuff) that it would take to produce even one of the traits I mentioned above makes me think it ludicrist. Quote:
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I'd never want to see teacher-led prayer in schools. NEver said I did. But I have a bigger problem with students being told they can't pray at lunch or during class. And I have an even bigger problem when some schools have different standards for different religions. Quote:
First, anyone who equates science with evolution is making a huge error. Second, christians on this discussion haven't ignored any evidence of evolution. We just don't find it good enough. Big difference. Physics, Chemistry, Astronomy, Oceanography, Meteorology, Genetics, and Medicine all transition without a hitch between naturalistic and christian science. Botany, Zoology, and Paleontology are only slightly different. A Christian can function as well as an Athiest in these branches. He just doesn't have to look at everything in terms of 'this is closely related to this' And finally, I would venture to say that Geology is better taught by christians than by athiests. They don't have to pretend that everything is the result of gradualistic processes. You might remember I hate gradualism. ]: ) The Big Bang theory, while plausable to a degree, is not sufficient for philosophy or nescessary for science. Philosophically, special creation makes more sense. And science should not be occupied with predicting phenomenonae in the present. Phenomenae. What a neat word. Anyway. Science in itself is neither Theist nor Antitheist. But, like every other aspect of life, the way you look at it is contingent on what beliefs you subscribe to. Evolution is the belief that's most widely taught. Quote:
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However, you would be wrong to categorize me as a theistic evolutionist. That is 'everything evolved from a common ancestor, but god helped us along'. What I believe is that god created us with the ability to adapt to our environment within the parameters of our creation. Quote:
'The Rapture' may happen within our lifetimes. But I hardly think it will be what popular christian thinking believes it to be. Quote:
Going with my patent dislike of gradualism, I can easily look at it in one of several other ways. I can say that humans didn't start dying (en mass) for almost a thousand years, and so huge numbers of other animals were dying in the meantime. I could say that the overwhelming majority of fossilized remains were the result of sedimentation from a global flood. And so they were roughly sorted by density and ability to avoid drowning (so humans are way up top). And so on. Quote:
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In any case, going with what I believe, it neen't have been one of each specefic animal. I.E. Just as it would have had likely been two dogs, it would have been two 'raptors' and two T-Rex types and two sauropods. And not nescessarily one of the larger types. Quote:
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The best analogy I can come up with is still that of an MPEG movie. One frame follows another in sequence, but the creator makes them all seperately. Quote:
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First, you could take the easy way out and say that this is a use of temporal language to describe something outside of time. The second, which I hold to be the better of the two, would be to say that God did not create light and let it go, but rather created light for a specefied duration. I can program my computer to turn the lights on at 700 and off at 2000, and get as god an illustration as is possible. I want the lights to behave that way, and I do not conflict with myself when the lights turn on and off. In effect, God said 'let there be light (for XY duration of time)' and 'it is good (to have light for this duration of time)' Using once more what seems to be a recurring theme... if I say 'let there be light for frames 6 through 30 of my rendered animation' that is my will through all 30+ frames, whether there is light or not. So just as I, the artist, want to make X happen in certain frames of the animation, God wants light to occur from the first day to whenever. Quote:
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04-02-2002, 07:54 PM | #571 | |
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You know your come back to that thing about you believing stuff in a book wasn't all that great. And dude, i just said that Evolution was a science. Its a major part of science. Yes, I know there are dozens of different categories of scientists and sciences. Gee thanks for listing a bunch. I'm no fool you know. And the point I was making and I think you know it is that most Science Text books (as in what they teach in school) majorly include evolution of diff species, the development of man, etc. And I think my question was quite plausible Wayfarer. Duh I knew that Christian Private schools were teaching science, but what I asked was what they were teaching in it! I mean most of the Christians in these debate don't believe in evolution, despite evidence and proof, and I'm ok with that. I mean do they teach that the earth was created in 7 days? How the heck am I supposed to know! Thats why I asked. Its not that 'obvious' or 'silly' a question to non Christians. And you expect me not to take offense? Geez Wayfarer, if anything you are only a couple years older. Heh. Whatever. :P
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04-02-2002, 08:24 PM | #572 | |
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bravo! bravo! *claps hands wildly*
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find a big field sometime and pace it out--it wasn't some ramshackle, slap-together dingy. This boat was monster sized. As an aside, I've also heard something about the ratio used for the ark is the same ratio (length to width) used by shipbuilders today... HOBBIT: My geog. prof teaches from evolutionary perspective, b/c he knows anyone going into that field (unless employed by CRI *note: see much lauged about article* will need come from that base in order to get hired. Thanks for bringing up these points, peoples. I'm a very literary minded person (translation: math and science are the bane of my existence), so while I don't contribute much to the discussion, I really enjoy reading your posts...they give me questions to work through that I normally wouldn't think about. *laughs at the irony* who would have thought you bunch of skeptics would actually encourage me in my faith?
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04-02-2002, 08:26 PM | #573 | ||||||
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Anyone know the rule of 46? Quote:
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I've never encountered christians who think the creatio of the world is a subject for science class. I'm of the opinion that only observable, demonstratable, and repeatable things should be taught in science classes. Neither popular evolution nor Creation are in this catagory.
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04-02-2002, 08:44 PM | #574 | |
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04-02-2002, 08:46 PM | #575 | |||||||
the Shrike
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Secondly, I understand your problems with gradualism. Why should anything be constrained to any one path? You're right there, but you have to remember, that not everything is black and white, and not everything can be explained away by gradualism. There are other mechanisms acting upon an organism within it's environment, not just gradualism. As it currently stands, evolutionary processes seem to be governed by punctuated equilibrium, or something very similar: stops and starts, depending on factors such as environment, access to resources, etc. Quote:
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The majority of fossil records caused by sedimentation? Don't make me laugh! Fossilisation is not caused by the ability to avoid drowning. It takes thousands, sometimes millions of years to fossilise something, and it takes unique conditions, to ensure the fossils survival from taphonomic factors. The record does document a flood, in fact, it documents many floods. However, floods are in no way helpful to the process of fossilisation. Firstly, they tend to scatter the faunal assemblages, secondly, the sheer force of the flood would damage the remains, sometimes beyond recognition. Fossilisation requires lots of time, and no disturbance (optimally). And finally, hominids have been found - varying species - only in the last 4 (at a conservative guess) million years. Whereas, dinosaur remains have been dated to at least 60 million years. Quote:
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And T-Rexes are pretty bloody big! (Bigger than the arks measurements, last time I checked) And carnivorous.... Finally, discuss the light sources again. I, and I'm sure some other people here, are unhappy with the given explanations. Some of those stars lights are 60 million light years old. How do you explain that? Oh, and we missed you too, wayfarer....
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04-02-2002, 09:09 PM | #576 |
The Buckleberry Fairy/Captain
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ummm, how do we know they're 60 million light years away? I even went through a course in astronomy and never figured it out. Please help the illogical english major...(well technically education major, but english will be one of my teachables)
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04-02-2002, 09:21 PM | #577 | |
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04-02-2002, 09:23 PM | #578 | |
the Shrike
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04-02-2002, 09:24 PM | #579 | |||||
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Crickhollow:
The rule of 46, simply stated, says that all scientists are blind.. ]: ) You see, a while back some scientist declared that the human race had 46 chromosomes, and everybody believed him. the lesson we can learn from this is that it's not true just beause scientists say it is. Quote:
I explain the difference, simply, by saying that bats and birds were created seperately. They're actually quite different, and likewise different from other wings or flying devices. Superficially, the bat's wing is closest to the webbed feet of gliding frogs, while the bird's wing is closest to a pteradon. Quote:
If you say evolution is merely adaption to the environment, I agree with you. I suppose we can call this practical evolution, and we see it all the time in a number of species. What I disagree with is what I guess we can call philosophical evolution. The unsubstantiated idea that every living thing has a common ancestor. I say that no matter how much an organism changes to suit it's envoronment, it will always be fundamentally the same. Birds are Birds, Dogs are dogs, etc. Anyway... I just wanted to get that straight once and for all. Quote:
The naturalism I was referring to says that everything is the result of nature, and hence we may be conditioned by 'culture', but 'culture' is conditioned by the beliefs of previous humans, which in turn are dictade by other facturs, and ultimately by nature as a whole. We are agreed that this doesn't make sense. However, I have yet to understand what you believe in if it's not God or Nature. Quote:
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In actuality, fossilization is usually caused by a buildup of material over a carcass. i.e. sedimentation. The faster this occurs, the higher the liklihood of fossilization. To be continued...
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04-02-2002, 09:37 PM | #580 | |
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