The Official US President Election Thread

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Draken

Is this election thing over yet by the way? Drags on a bit, doesn't it?

Yes it does, doesn't it. Mark your calendars... November 2 is the US Elections this year.

Then we move directly into the 'Court Challenge Phase' of the Electoral Process.

[Nurvingiel]

LOL Valandil. I expect that if one candidate wins by a clear margin, this phase of the election will be avoided. But if there's a chance that you might have actually won...

Does anyone want to explain the actual procedure of voting? There's some machine which punches the ballot or something? This led to the infamous dangling chad...
In Canadian elections, you mark an X next to the candidate you want, and the ballots are manually counted by impartial people who don't get to vote themselves. You're also only voting for one person.
But the actual system of voting is different in the USA, so maybe it makes sense that the mechanics of voting are different.
What are the ballots like? Do you vote for the President and the running mate at the same time? Is this separate from electing Senators?

[Valandil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

LOL Valandil. I expect that if one candidate wins by a clear margin, this phase of the election will be avoided. But if there's a chance that you might have actually won...

Does anyone want to explain the actual procedure of voting? There's some machine which punches the ballot or something? This led to the infamous dangling chad...
In Canadian elections, you mark an X next to the candidate you want, and the ballots are manually counted by impartial people who don't get to vote themselves. You're also only voting for one person.
But the actual system of voting is different in the USA, so maybe it makes sense that the mechanics of voting are different.
What are the ballots like? Do you vote for the President and the running mate at the same time? Is this separate from electing Senators?

I believe there is some variation... and I think there's some experimentation with computer voting now... which scares me a bit, with the possibilities of crashes, electronic tampering, etc - and no automatic paper trail.

In Presidential voting, the Pres and VP candidate are on the same 'ticket' - with one vote you vote for two people in those two spots, so they are truly 'running mates'... so I could not, for instance - vote for Kerry for President and Cheney for VP... nor could I turn things around and vote for Edwards or Cheney for President and Kerry or Bush for VP.

What I think they still do where I vote is this... I walk thru a line until I reach a desk where they verify my voter registration and hand me a ballot. The ballot is a long vertical card... and there are many people to vote for at once - all of which goes on the card. When there is an open 'booth', I go over there and slide my card into a slot at the top of something like a fixed booklet on a tabletop. Two 'buttons' at the top secure the card in the correct position, so that all the 'punch-holes' line up with the appropriate numbers. Then, flipping through the booklet, I use a stylus-type instrument to 'punch' out the places for my candidate of choice in each race (President/VP, Senator, all kinds of representatives - to both federal and state houses, county and sometimes local officials, scads of judges, coroner, water commissioners... don't think I've ever actually had a 'dog-catcher' on the ballot).

I believe the ballots used to be assembled and tabulated later that day (or regularly taken somewhere as the day went along - whatever)... but the last time or two I've voted, they take the card from me (I don't drop it into a box anymore - as I used to), and they feed it through a machine (black, smaller than a breadbox), which records and tabulates my vote instantly.

[Nurvingiel]

Complex... the mystery of the dangling chad is explained. (If the stylus doesn't punch right through, that's what you would end up with!)

Thanks Valandil.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I believe there is some variation... and I think there's some experimentation with computer voting now... which scares me a bit, with the possibilities of crashes, electronic tampering, etc - and no automatic paper trail.

Why is thart scary? Most of New Jersey has been using computerized voting for 10 years now with NO problems. I've never voted in NJ except with computer. A liberal Rutgers University professor tried to get us not to use the computers this year, took it to court. The courts rejected his claim saying - it was far more dangerous to go to paper ballets two weeks before the election and that we have been using this method for a decade now with no problems. The computerized voting issues in my opinion are just democrats scare tactics so they can claim voter fraud if they lose.

As for automatic paper trail - explain to me - if this is such a big deal - how many of the lever machines gave you a paper reciept on how you voted? Was there any guarantees that those machines counted the votes correctly or that the machines didn't get jammed? Elections aren't perfect, people aren't perfect, machines aren't perfect. Get used to it. An election will NEVER be 100% perfect. Not one election has probably been perfect in the 200+ years we have had elections as a nation.


My brother (who is in Afganistan) sent me Kerry's job application for President

Subject: John Kerry's Job Application

JOB APPLICATION
NAME: John Kerry

RESIDENCE: 7 mansions, including one in Washington DC, worth
multi-millions. I served in Vietnam (four months).

EXPERIENCE:
Law Enforcement. In my career as a U.S. Senator, I've voted to cut every law enforcement, CIA, and Defense bill. I ordered the city of Boston to remove a fire hydrant in front of my mansion, thereby endangering my neighbors in the event of fire. I served in Vietnam (four months).

MILITARY:
I served in Vietnam (four months). I used three minor injuries to get an early discharge from the military and service in Vietnam (as documented by the attending doctor). I served in Vietnam (four months). I then returned to the U.S., joined Jane Fonda in protesting the war, and insulted returning Vietnam vets, claiming they committed atrocities and were baby killers. I served in Vietnam (four months). I threw my medals, ribbons, or something away in protest. Or did I? My book "Vietnam Veterans Against the War: The New Soldier", shows how I truly feel about the military. I served in Vietnam (four months).

COLLEGE:
I graduated from Yale University with a low C average. Unlike my counterpart George Bush, I have no higher education and did not get admitted to Harvard nor graduate with an M.B.A

PAST WORK EXPERIENCE:
After College and Vietnam, I ran for the U.S. Congress and have been there ever since. I have no real world experience except marrying very rich women and running their companies vicariously through them. I served in Vietnam (four months).

ACCOMPLISHMENTS:
As a U.S. Senator I set the record for the most liberal voting record, exceeding even Ted Kennedy and Hillary Clinton. I have consistently failed to support our military and CIA by voting against their budgets, thus gutting our country's ability to defend itself. Although I voted for the Iraq War, now I am against it and refuse to admit that I voted for it. I voted for every liberal piece of legislation. I have no plan to help this country but I intend to raise taxes significantly if I am elected. I served in Vietnam (four months).

My wealth so far exceeds that of my counterpart, George Bush, that he will never catch up. I make little or no charitable contributions and have never agreed to pay any voluntary excess taxes in Massachusetts, despite family wealth in excess of $ 700 million. I served in Vietnam (four months).

I (we) own 28 manufacturing plants (Heinz) outside of the U.S. in places like Asia, Mexico and Europe. We can make more profit from the cheaper cost of labor in those Countries, although I blame George Bush for sending all of the other jobs out of Country. I served in Vietnam (four months).

Although I claim to be in favor of alternative energy sources, Ted Kennedy and I oppose windmills off Nantucket and Martha's Vineyard as it might spoil our view of the ocean as we cruise on our yachts. I served in Vietnam (four months).

RECORDS AND REFERENCES:
None. However, I served in Vietnam (four months).

PERSONAL I practice my Catholic faith whenever cameras are present.

I ride a Serotta Bike. I love to ski/snowboard. I call my Gulfstream V Jet the "Flying Squirrel". I call my $850,000 42-foot Hinckley twin diesel yacht the "Scaramouch".

I am fascinated by rap and hip-hop and feel it reflects our real culture.

I own several large SUVs including one parked at my Nantucket summer mansion, though I am against large, polluting, inefficient vehicles and blame George Bush for our energy problems. I served in Vietnam (four months).

PLEASE CONSIDER MY EXPERIENCE WHEN VOTING IN 2004.

Sween-

But what i would say to the American people is if 9/11 had not happened would you be re electing Bush on the strength of his domestic policy? has the state of the economy got better? Has welfare got better? Are more people in jobs? are more people getting the health care they need? Or is he too busy protecting his country (and that debatiable) to worry about such trival matters? And is your country more safe? Have you made any new friends (our government may like you but our people dont like you as much) have you managed to make terrorists think oh i dont want to hurt America anymore or have you made them more determined?

This would be impossible to answer because 9/11 DID happen - which has prevented him from doing a lot on the domestic front and caused A LOT of the problems you see today. It would be like asking what would the world be if Europe took action on Hitler before WWII occurred. There are certain facts though if 9/11 didn't happen - millions of people wouldn't have lost their job overnight, the stock market would not be so shakey, the debt would not be so high (or high at all). 9/11 happened only 9 MONTHS after he got into office. You seem to have little understanding of the impact of 9/11 or how huge those buildings were (they were NOT just buildings - they were a MAJOR financial center where 50,000 people worked in offices, plus all the janitors and other workers and between 50,000 - 100,000 tourists a day). Picture a financial city - an area larger than your 10th largest city being wiped off the face of the earth. Now tell me - how much impact would that have on your country? The Twin Towers contained MORE office space than ALL of San Diego. Would your PM be able to really do all the things they planned before - or would you be at war? How much did other presidents during World War I and World War II get done outside of those wars (while they were going on? How much did Abraham Lincoln do outside of the Civil War?

The protection of America doesn't necessarily require for you or your people or the damn french (who were in bed with Hussein anyway) to like us. Just because you don't support us - doesn't mean you have an understanding of what we are doing. What matters is that we are actively taking a position in the middle east which will work to destroy the terrorists, and bring LONG TERM peace to the Middle East. As long as we went with the status quo in the Middle East there would always be conflict there. That is what you want. I want to bring long term peace there - which requires the war on terrorism. I hope you will accept that you have no say in how our country defends itself - just like we have no say in your country. If the world is so against the US and wants to compare us to Hitler and Nazi Germany - then come on - why aren't all your countries mobilizing and fighting against us?

[jerseydevil]

Also Sween with your statement -

have you managed to make terrorists think oh i dont want to hurt America anymore or have you made them more determined?

That's like arguing that us attacking Japan and going after them after they bombed Pearl Harbor was wrong because it just made them more determined and brought on more attacks against us. Of course it made them more determined - but it brought the fight on OUR terms - instead of always waiting around. Now THEY have to watch out for us. We can win this - but only by facing the facts of the situation and not going back to the way we just appeased the Middle East for 50 years. You know - maybe you should have just waited for Hitler to actually attack you before declaring war or maybe you should never have attacked Germany at all. Maybe you guys just pissed him off by fighting back. Why didn't you just go about letting him do what he wanted? Sounds outrageous doesn't it?

[Nurvingiel]

George Bush made it into Harvard? Clearly, we've misunderestimated him.


I think the paper trail Valandil was referring to is the ballots themselves. I still don't see why you can't just mark an "X"...

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

George Bush made it into Harvard? Clearly, we've misunderestimated him.

He got better grades than Gore also - but that only came up in the last election when they compared grades. Not everyone is a great orator or debater and that actually has no bearing on a person's intelligence. I would suck at having to give a debate the way they have to.

I think the paper trail Valandil was referring to is the ballots themselves. I still don't see why you can't just mark an "X"...

No - because there is no paper trail with the lever machines either. And what has been argued was that one gets a receipt when one votes using computer - which is different than a paper trail.

[Nurvingiel]

True, anyone who can speak on national television and keep his cool deserves credit. I just thought I'd take a friendly dig at Bush. I mean, it is kinda funny...
I actually would be a good debator. (Or maybe I like to hear the sound of my own voice. )

That's a good point about the ballots. Computer voting does raise other issues, like some people don't trust or understand computers. You don't want to introduce bias into the voting system by excluding those who don't have computers and/or are computer illiterate. I think the system would actually be quite secure, and they'd probably get enough bandwidth etc. But the potential for excluding voters is probably the biggest issue.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

That's a good point about the ballots. Computer voting does raise other issues, like some people don't trust or understand computers. You don't want to introduce bias into the voting system by excluding those who don't have computers and/or are computer illiterate.

Do you know how you vote by computers? do you know what they look like?
I'm just wondering - after you tell me - I'll explain what it looks like and how it works. I just want to know what you think it is first.

[osszie]

I presume that it's some kinda touch-screen voting via computer. If folks can't be trusted to make a simple mark in a box on a piece of paper accurately, then mebbe they will have more luck aiming a finger at a point on a screen :shrug: (I hope it isn't done via internet or summit......proxy servers are easy to get).

Looks like you are gettin' yer wish JD.....furriners are being kept out of american politics, particularly the election Get out you 'orrible furriners .... I find that action to be quite odd.

And....it looks like popular (US) opinion is doubtfull of a straight run in the election as well No faith in the system

[Nurvingiel]

At my university, elections for the student government are done by computer. There are five (IIRC) people to vote for for different positions in the government, as well as the Board of Governors.

The website had a good layout and made sense. First, you log in to the site with your name and student ID (unique to you). Once you're verified, you're sent to the ballot site.

Since there was actually more than one election IIRC (Government and Board of Governors) you first select which one you will vote in. (You could vote in both.)

This brings you to the appropriate ballot. The screen has the same layout as you would expect on a ballot - it lists all the candidates and the positions for which they are running. Next to everyone's names is a check box which you select. You submit the ballot when you're done, and the site asks if you're sure. Select "yes" and you have voted via computer.

The advantage to this system is the student elections are notorious for low voter turnout. All the students have computer access, and for most it's quite easy. This meant that the voter turnout was less abyssmal than it might have been (though it still wasn't great). (I voted.)

After the elections, there was criticisms that the system wasn't very secure. This may be true, because another problem was that logging in was difficult. Sometimes it simply wouldn't let you log in, even though you knew you hadn't voted yet. (I think I had to try more than once, but the election was over a year ago, so I'm not sure.) I'm not sure if there was an inquiry, or what the results were. It did raise the issue that it was a problem though.

And that, folks, is one way to have an on-line connection. Obviously, selecting your President that way would be a little different ie. the ballot would be different, and the site would probably work smoothly. I imagine the government would have more resources.

So this is being considered in the USA, if I understand correctly? What do you think JD?

EDIT: I cross posted with Osszie. I'm afraid I don't understand your post. Why would a foreigner be able to vote in their elections anyway?

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by osszie

Looks like you are gettin' yer wish JD.....furriners are being kept out of american politics, particularly the election Get out you 'orrible furriners .... I find that action to be quite odd.

Your use of "furriners" and "'orrible furriners" to mock me just shows your shear arrogance. As for your link - what is wrong with that? It states that this is often used to control heavily trafficed sites. I can see the candidates using this to make sure the PEOPLE WHO WILL be the ones voting for them - have access to the website. It's not like the non-us citizen can not get into the site - it's just to control bandwidth and make sure the ones who actually can vote and actually need the information - can get it without being blocked because the server is too busy.

And....it looks like popular (US) opinion is doubtfull of a straight run in the election as well No faith in the system

Again - what's the point of this article? of course people are concerned it will be another fiasco. I'm concerned too, the election is 50/50 - it's not that I don't have any faith in the system though - there is a difference. If People read the Constinution - they will have an understanding of the US Government and the election process. There is no cure for stupidity and ignorance better than reading and education (and not just school and then stop either). If people have a concern about what happens if the election is split 50/50 - read the Constitution, it says it right there. Dont' understand the electoral college or why it exists - read the Federalist Papers. Didn't know the electoral college existed - well sorry - if people bothered to educate themselves and read the Constitution they would know.

[jerseydevil]

[QUOTE=Nurvingiel]

So this is being considered in the USA, if I understand correctly? What do you think JD?

Web voting in the US has been considered - but no one does it yet (there is way too many security problems with the web). I do NOT support web voting at this time. I think people should have to go to a polling place unless they are away.

Coney is basically right. It's a huge white board with the names there and next to each name is a square box. You click on a box and an "X" appears letting you know that you have voted for that candidate. When you are finished there is a LARGE RED botton on the panel which says "Vote" or "Finish" or something like that. You press that when you have finished voting. There are instructions also on this panel and before you start voting. Anyone who can't do this system - couldn't write there name and shouldn't be voting.

For more information on the systems NJ uses and where you can look at the NJ Election site

Here is a PDF on the brochure for the voting system I use (with pictures) - AVC Advantage

EDIT: I cross posted with Osszie. I'm afraid I don't understand your post. Why would a foreigner be able to vote in their elections anyway?

The article is actually about the campaigns web sites giving priority to people coming in from the US over people accessing it from other countries to prevent server overload and making sure that the voters in the US can access the site.

Although - democrats have actually supported illegal aliens voting.

[osszie]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Your use of "furriners" and "'orrible furriners" to mock me just shows your shear arrogance. As for your link - what is wrong with that? It states that this is often used to control heavily trafficed sites. I can see the candidates using this to make sure the PEOPLE WHO WILL be the ones voting for them - have access to the website. It's not like the non-us citizen can not get into the site - it's just to control bandwidth and make sure the ones who actually can vote and actually need the information - can get it without being blocked because the server is too busy.

Don't be ridiculous JD, you know I've typed in an accent for as long as I've posted here......and you also know me well enough to realise that if I wanted to mock you......I would do a much better job than that

I can certainly agree that it is imperative that those who have the right to vote, get access to relevant information first. Yet doesn't it concern you that there are hundreds of thousands of US naionals, with the voting priveledges that affords currently living and working outside of the US? Not least of which are the military service personel?

Again - what's the point of this article? of course people are concerned it will be another fiasco. I'm concerned too, the election is 50/50 - it's not that I don't have any faith in the system though - there is a difference. If People read the Constinution - they will have an understanding of the US Government and the election process. There is no cure for stupidity and ignorance better than reading and education (and not just school and then stop either). If people have a concern about what happens if the election is split 50/50 - read the Constitution, it says it right there. Dont' understand the electoral college or why it exists - read the Federalist Papers. Didn't know the electoral college existed - well sorry - if people bothered to educate themselves and read the Constitution they would know.

So basically, the majority of people have no faith in the system......because they don't have an understanding of their electoral system and the regulations that govern it......interesting....and not a little scary.

I cross posted with Osszie. I'm afraid I don't understand your post. Why would a foreigner be able to vote in their elections anyway?

They can't. But when you consider that here in England we have 30,000 armed personel in Iraq....it might be argued that we have more than a little vested interest in who becomes the next President......then there is the above arguement, where are US nationals living abroad getting their information from? If it's not from the official website?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Web voting in the US has been considered - but no one does it yet (there is way too many security problems with the web). I do NOT support web voting at this time. I think people should have to go to a polling place unless they are away.

I agree, at the moment there are too many security issues. That's what our university found, and they're not small-time. There are 40 000 students, so I'm sure that they put loads of effort into the site. Maybe in the future (perhaps not so distant) it will work.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Coney is basically right. It's a huge white board with the names there and next to each name is a square box. You click on a box and an "X" appears letting you know that you have voted for that candidate. When you are finished there is a LARGE RED botton on the panel which says "Vote" or "Finish" or something like that. You press that when you have finished voting. There are instructions also on this panel and before you start voting. Anyone who can't do this system - couldn't write there name and shouldn't be voting.

No worries. You'd really have to be incompetant to mess that one up. I suppose the dangling chad thing was caused by something else - is that the case?

I can visualize the system pretty well from the description, thanks for the link though.

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

The article is actually about the campaigns web sites giving priority to people coming in from the US over people accessing it from other countries to prevent server overload and making sure that the voters in the US can access the site.

It makes sense that if they're running out of bandwidth, people who are using the site to research their vote should get priority access. Maybe they need a bigger server (or whatever it's called).

Originally Posted by jerseydevil

Although - democrats have actually supported illegal aliens voting.

Does Kerry? Is that an issue in the election? I'm pretty liberal, but I'm not that liberal.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by osszie

I can certainly agree that it is imperative that those who have the right to vote, get access to relevant information first. Yet doesn't it concern you that there are hundreds of thousands of US naionals, with the voting priveledges that affords currently living and working outside of the US?

That is an issue - but not as large of an issue as 280 millions people in the US not being able to get in because billions of people aroudn the world are just browsing for self interest. A balance has to be made and I see no problem with it.

Not least of which are the military service personel?

YOu must really have a lack of understanding here. Do YOU really think that the US military uses local website hosting? The military sets up the servers and everything and they are US servers (so they would be considered as being in the US) - just like the phone lines get routed to the US and is a LOCAL phone call. Even though my brother is calling from Afganistan - it comes up on caller ID as Florda.

So basically, the majority of people have no faith in the system......because they don't have an understanding of their electoral system and the regulations that govern it......interesting....and not a little scary.

Yeah it is. It would be nice if people bothered to read a bit and educate themselves/

They can't. But when you consider that here in England we have 30,000 armed personel in Iraq....it might be argued that we have more than a little vested interest in who becomes the next President

Yeah - and the same goes for the US being concerned who becomes British PM.

......then there is the above arguement, where are US nationals living abroad getting their information from? If it's not from the official website?

IT DOES NOT BLOCK THEM. It is to control bandwidth - if the site is being heavily used - then it will block outsiders and let the US residents in. You can still get in at a different time though. '

Tell me - have you encountered any problems with getting into the presidents website? Janny can you tell me if you have had any problems?

Anyway - there are a lot of other sources other than the those websites to gain information. I hardly ever go onto the candidate or the RNC/DNC websites. Why should I? There are a lot of other areas to get information and those sites are all spin anyway.

[Nurvingiel]

If http://www.georgewbush.com/ is the correct address, it doesn't work from Sweden at the moment. But it's crunch time for deciding your vote, the elections only 5 days away. (People have had ages to decide, but that's not the point.)

I'll post what I said in the PM I sent you because it's relevant here:

(Paraphrase) Are there high administration costs to the voting system JD? Any system would have fairly high costs, I imagine, but you guys also have to buy the machines I looked at from your Sequoia link if I understand correctly. The government must have to buy loads of those! (And they weigh 225-265 lbs, ~102-120 kg. )

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

No worries. You'd really have to be incompetant to mess that one up. I suppose the dangling chad thing was caused by something else - is that the case?

Hanging chad was caused by punch cards. People either didn't push the stylis all the way through (generally caused the pregnant chad) or the "chad" became dislodged during the numerous times it was handled. Anyway - basically it was just dangling from the ballot. If that happened to me - I would rip off the chad before handing it in. A chad is just a perferated disc which is bunched out of the ballot to mark the vote.

I usually spend time look over everything - about a minute or 2 to make sure I have everything marked right and I didn't miss anything.

Does Kerry? Is that an issue in the election? I'm pretty liberal, but I'm not that liberal.

Well democrats like to call this - "disenfrancisement", but he hasn't stated any of his position on this matter concerning illegal immigration. They also argue that illegal aliens should be allowed to get drivers licenses in California. Excuse me - they ARE ILLEGAL - they aren't even supposed to be HERE - so why the hell do we give them free health care, free education and why are students who are ILLEGAL able to apply and get scholarships which are meant for US citizens? Why would they or should they get a drivers license in this country? It's not being against immigration - it's being against ILLEGAL immigration.

[jerseydevil]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

(Paraphrase) Are there high administration costs to the voting system JD? Any system would have fairly high costs, I imagine, but you guys also have to buy the machines I looked at from your Sequoia link if I understand correctly. The government must have to buy loads of those! (And they weigh 225-265 lbs, ~102-120 kg. )

Well they're cheaper than the old lever ones with the upkeep and they're also lighter than those. Middlesex county has 662 of the machines for the various polling places. Bergen County - our must populace county - has 1,200. Of course not all our counties use the same voting machine - the counties determine what they would like to use and as far as I know - they pay for them with the help of the state government. 5 NJ counties still use the old lever (mechanical) system - all the other counties use some form of electronic system.