Muslims

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I understand your argument, and that it "makes sense", and my point is that where do governments draw the line, then? If it "makes sense", then should governments ENFORCE good sense by putting limits on the free speech of their own people towards people groups that they're trying to have better relationships with, esp. if some in those people groups tend to be volatile? Do you think that all comics should be required, by the government, to be run past a Muslim Sensibility panel before being published?

Certainly not. But I DO think you do what you can which means meeting with them trying to quell their discontent when your own citizens use their right to free speech to antagonize the very people you are trying to gain better relationships with... I never said ban anti muslim cartoons. But certainly take every measure in your power to NOT inflame the situation even more. And this didnt happen. A government can take measures to calm the situation to some extent. A government can distance itself from certain members of its own nation and not add tinder to the fire by basically saying ha screw you we dont even acknowledge your anger over this. Its not OUR problem... Bad choices and overreactions on both sides made this situation much much worse.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by inked

Because you like to think that Islam is other than the way it is acting en masse?

Because all 1 billion plus of them are burning embassies? Because this isnt being fomented by any extremists at all? Because the dozens of public condemnations by muslims in power positions around the world are just illusions and didnt actually happen? Because whenever muslims do good deeds and help others they suddenly become non muslims? I love your bold faced stereo typing to suit your agenda inked... Gays and muslims. Who else do you do that with? Oh yeah... Liberals…

Funny, but I don't seem to recall any such when Islamic extremists killed thousands at the Twin Towers and Pentagon. Did I miss something?

Yes you seemed to have missed when we BLEW UP AFGHANISTAN soon after those 19 extremists did that. And I wont even get into the whole Iraq thing. Now wouldnt you agree that you could really make the argument that doing that was more extreme then lighting a building on fire? Now (before people pass out from indignation) to US this attack was just revenge and a well deserved response to a heinous murderous act. Even preventative. And to US getting worked up about insulting a god in a comic is silly. But THEY are not US. Stop trying to attach the rules of YOUR culture to everyone else in the world/universe. Thats where you get into trouble... That’s where we ALL get into trouble. Because we continue to look down on each other because of that.

[Spock]

We don't all look down on others. Some look up through body parts and pieces of cement.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Stop trying to attach the rules of YOUR culture to everyone else in the world/universe.

Such as what defines a marriage?

What is the Islamic position on homosexuality, btw?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Because all 1 billion plus of them are burning embassies?

Tens of thousands protested the cartoons in Gaza Strip alone. Tens of thousands more in Niger. Many thousands in Iraq as well. Hundreds of thousands in Jakarta. Hundreds of thousands more in Lebanon. Thousands upon thousands of protesters throughout the Muslim world protested this. According to a Labour Party leader in the UK, hundreds of millions of Muslims were deeply insulted by this. Whether that is true or not, it is certain that this isn't the random terrorist.

Of course the full number of Muslims won't be on the street protesting, and of those that do protest, only a limited number will do so violently. Nonetheless, this is clearly a major issue.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Because the dozens of public condemnations by muslims in power positions around the world are just illusions and didnt actually happen?

I know of one Muslim leader in the UK who said that, and I think some leaders of countries have also said that. I'd like to see your sources though, for I have definitely not seen any counter-protest protests from Muslims.

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

What is the Islamic position on homosexuality, btw?

I think about the same as ours, except that their conservatives are far harsher on them than ours are. There are liberal Muslims who are fine with homosexuality though, just as there are liberal Christians who feel that way.

Originally Posted by Lotesse

That's a very good point you made here, Irex. Back in the day, Christian extremists in power were bloodcurdlingly ruthless to heretics, no doubt about that.

Absolutely right. Though I think that this was more about politics than religion. You find ruthless tortures and terrible massacres to suppress minorities or opponents in every culture. Sometimes it's about religion and sometimes not. In Sri Lanka, Buddhists in power for many years have been persecuting the Tiger movement in the most brutal fashion, with tortures and rapes and everything. Sometimes religion is the cause of the violence. Other times, and pretty frequently, politics is.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I understand your argument, and that it "makes sense", and my point is that where do governments draw the line, then? If it "makes sense", then should governments ENFORCE good sense by putting limits on the free speech of their own people towards people groups that they're trying to have better relationships with, esp. if some in those people groups tend to be volatile? Do you think that all comics should be required, by the government, to be run past a Muslim Sensibility panel before being published?

IRex... You don’t restrain yourself from insulting Muhammad because they have a fit about it… You do it because IT MAKES SENSE when you are trying to have BETTER relationships with these cultures anyway. It MAKES SENSE NOT to antagonize a person or people who feel oppressed or mistreated or antagonized to begin with. You are only making it harder to achieve your original goal.

That is a point we should all agree on, however, equally; muslims are going to have to accept the fact that not everybody is muslim and therfore reverent when it comes to their religion.
I read in the paper that the danish cartoonists had drawn the cartoons to "challenge Muslims" over portraying Muhammed.
Doing that was rash ("it was supposed to be rash" ), and hopefully they'll think twice about doing it next time.
But how to solve freedom of expression vs. respect for boundaries? On this issue, i'd probably say it was Danishland's fault (*tries to keep straight face*)...bah! you guys know what I mean.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Such as what defines a marriage?

What is the Islamic position on homosexuality, btw?

Strangely enough, there is something strange to say on this subject.
Robin Cook's book "Hunting for Osama bin Laden" claims that there is a strange mountain group in Afghanistan of wild homosexual muslims...

[Lotesse]

Pictures late-night infomercial on T.V. to order the latest DVD of "Homosexual Muslims Gone Wild!", complete with wet -Tshirt contests and so forth...

How in the world does homosexuality have anything whatsoever to do with the subject of this thread??? Very confused here. What the hell is going on?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Pictures late-night infomercial on T.V. to order the latest DVD of "Homosexual Muslims Gone Wild!", complete with wet -Tshirt contests and so forth...

How in the world does homosexuality have anything whatsoever to do with the subject of this thread??? Very confused here. What the hell is going on?

IRex wants Rian to get her nose out of Islam because she has no say over what is right for them, and so she asks: what about their views on homosexuals? Doth IRex let them have that too?

[Lotesse]

But -how the hell does she dictate what's right or not right for anyone else, and what the HELL does homosexuality have anything at ALL to do with the title of this damn thread? How is the term even used to make an argument or comparison, in context of Muslim anger over cartoons being published? She SHOULD get her nose out of Islam because she DOESN'T have a say of what's right for them, any more than any other non-Muslim has.

[Lief Erikson]

If we happen to know Muslims or have studied their beliefs at all, presenting what information we have is fine.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

But -how the hell does she dictate what's right or not right for anyone else, and what the HELL does homosexuality have anything at ALL to do with the title of this damn thread? How is the term even used to make an argument or comparison, in context of Muslim anger over cartoons being published? She SHOULD get her nose out of Islam because she DOESN'T have a say of what's right for them, any more than any other non-Muslim has.

Guess what Lotesse. Let that mindset rule europeans, they'll be taken over. Let that mindset rule every non-muslim in the world, and poof! We are under their dominion.

"Keeping your nose out of it" is what doesn't belong in this issue.

Here's something funny:

Joe: you're not Mark's father, Al,...don't tell him what to do.
Al: Oh yeah? Well, you're not MY father Joe. Don't tell ME what to do.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by hector

IRex wants Rian to get her nose out of Islam because she has no say over what is right for them, and so she asks: what about their views on homosexuals? Doth IRex let them have that too?

Right; he says that we shouldn't dictate to another culture what is right or wrong, so I point out that my guess is that he would object to the Muslim majority position on homosexuality (which I knew they were against - it was a question to make a point) - IOW, my guess is that he has a double standard here. I imagine he would say that many Muslims treat women poorly, too, and isn't that dictating to another culture what is right or wrong?

[The Gaffer]

Just because a person is capable of understanding:
1) another point of view and
2) that different cultures exist
does not mean that he agrees with them.

I'll say it again: comprehension is not equal to agreement nor approval. Does that make sense? Take a moment to think about it.

OK, now that's sorted, let's consider the "clash of cultures" issue.

It is precisely this sort of line of reasoning that leads to the "us and them" attitude. "They're all the same; attack is the best form of defence".

That in turn leads to bombed villages, embassies on fire and planes flying into skyscrapers. And guess what? It changes nothing; attacking, whether verbal or physical, just makes the situation worse.

More detail: In Iraq under Saddam, women had jobs. Post-Saddam, women can't go out of the house on their own let alone work. See how attacking makes the situation worse?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

More detail: In Iraq under Saddam, women had jobs. Post-Saddam, women can't go out of the house on their own let alone work. See how attacking makes the situation worse?

At least they aren't being tortured for money anymore, and the big rape houses no longer exist. UNESCO says that 20% of women in Iraq are now employed. A pretty low figure, but better than the zilch you make out.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Such as what defines a marriage?

What is the Islamic position on homosexuality, btw?

We have a topic thread for Marriage and another for Homosexuality and one for Muslims.

THIS BELONGS IN THE PROPER VENUE.

Please post your questions there.

[Spock]

Didn't mean to single out one person


PUT COMMENTS, ETC. ABOUT RELATED SUBJECTS IN THEIR PROPER THREADS.

This is about the Nordic attacks and has wandered into other topic fields.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Because all 1 billion plus of them are burning embassies? Because this isnt being fomented by any extremists at all? Because the dozens of public condemnations by muslims in power positions around the world are just illusions and didnt actually happen? Because whenever muslims do good deeds and help others they suddenly become non muslims? I love your bold faced stereo typing to suit your agenda inked... Gays and muslims. Who else do you do that with? Oh yeah... Liberals…



Yes you seemed to have missed when we BLEW UP AFGHANISTAN soon after those 19 extremists did that. And I wont even get into the whole Iraq thing. Now wouldnt you agree that you could really make the argument that doing that was more extreme then lighting a building on fire? Now (before people pass out from indignation) to US this attack was just revenge and a well deserved response to a heinous murderous act. Even preventative. And to US getting worked up about insulting a god in a comic is silly. But THEY are not US. Stop trying to attach the rules of YOUR culture to everyone else in the world/universe. Thats where you get into trouble... That’s where we ALL get into trouble. Because we continue to look down on each other because of that.

It wasn't my rules and culture, IR, but yours, that I was questioning in my questions.

You certainly seem free to attach your rules and culture (in its personal sense, I mean) to the world and how it should be run.

My point was that in western culture in general one doesn't see the type of fervid response to SIGNIFICANT insults and acts of war that we are seeing with these Islamic rioters. I know that there are lots of liberals waiting for their local WalMarts to be torched over some editorial cartoon in some international yellow-rag piece of journalism, BUT they are still waiting and will be ad infinitum.

On the other hand, we can make judgment between the salutory effects of specific forms of government and religion as opposed to the other types of reactions engendered in those mattters, can't we? And it is entirely legitimate to say tha x is related to y when the same damn thing happens over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over..........

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Tens of thousands protested the cartoons in Gaza Strip alone. Tens of thousands more in Niger. Many thousands in Iraq as well. Hundreds of thousands in Jakarta. Hundreds of thousands more in Lebanon. Thousands upon thousands of protesters throughout the Muslim world protested this. According to a Labour Party leader in the UK, hundreds of millions of Muslims were deeply insulted by this. Whether that is true or not, it is certain that this isn't the random terrorist.

But my point was that all these people were NOT looking to burn buildings. Are you contending that here? I think you are in fact making my point which is the difference between the percentage of those looking to do real hooliganism versus the percentage of those who did NOT is enormous. Furthermore… (and something EVERYONE here keeps ignoring for some reason…) this hooliganism and criminal activity has been instigated and fomented by the radical extremists who have been fighting us one way or another all along. So the very notion that these hundreds of millions of people are all looking to rape and kill and destroy and tear down the world is erroneous. And that average every day muslim women and children and old men and librarians and dog catchers etc. regularly engage in such activities is preposterous.

The truly violent episodes only occurred in a hand full of locations: Afghanistan, Damascus, Beirut. And really is it any surprise that violence focused on westerners would occur in these places? I found no confirmation of wide spread violence in Indonesia or even Iraq like you said above (nor in the Philippines or Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Turkey or many other largely muslim countries).

Now if none of the burnings had happened but an equal number of protests had occurred would there be the sheer vitriol and indignation we are hearing now from westerners? Calling them “small� and petty and uncivilized and fanatics? Im assuming the answer would be no right? Because we here in the west feel its an ok thing to protest or march or raise your voice when you feel an injustice has been done to you. right? So why the widespread condemnation of ALL muslims because a drop in the bucket have attacked buildings? Shouldn’t we be instead condemning those who have engaged in these actions of destruction? And those terrorists and extremists who have egged them on? There have been peaceful protest marches all around the world. You act as if every protest has been simple and pure anarchy with no organization whatsoever.

And why do we paint with a broad brush for THIS event yet not for others exactly? Conservatives like to shout about how they are helping the people of Iraq against the FEW bad insurgents and terrorists. Yet when a large group of muslims protest and a FEW attack buildings suddenly its ALL muslims or at least “this is how those damn crazy muslims behave�. And that’s inaccurate.

I know of one Muslim leader in the UK who said that, and I think some leaders of countries have also said that. I'd like to see your sources though, for I have definitely not seen any counter-protest protests from Muslims.

I never said there have been counter protest protests… I said there have been many muslims who have spoken out against the violence that has occurred. Every single day since this has occurred I have seen on television muslim spokesmen (leaders, diplomats, clerics, etc.) saying essentially what the Danes did was wrong but we must not have a violent response. Please refrain from violence. Even the Saudi king said that when he met with Bush. Publicly… For the world to see. I have also seen a couple interviews with the “man on the street� in places like Iraq and the Palestinian Territories and right here in the US and while many have showed great anger over the cartoons several have also said but the violence is not good. It GOES AGAINST THE IDEALS OF ISLAM.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

but the violence is not good. It GOES AGAINST THE IDEALS OF ISLAM.

Not true.

A main hadith is that non-Muslims are only given three choices: 1) convert to Islam, 2) Pay the jizya or 3) war

Peaceful coexistence as equals in a pluralistic society isn't one of the choices.