Iraq

[Dunadan]

Todays' Guardian reports on a meeting between US and Iraqi opposition leaders:

At the meeting, on the future of a post-Saddam Iraq - details of which have been disclosed to the Guardian - the state department stressed that protection of the oilfields was "issue number one".

So, not tracking down and disposing of any hidden stashes of WMDs, or Al-Q'aida hideouts, then.

Asked whether US companies would operate the oil fields, Colin Powell said:

I don't have an answer to that question. If we are the occupying power, it will be held for the benefit of the Iraqi people and it will be operated for the benefit of the Iraqi people.

Nice sentiment. Slightly tarnished by the fact that the Iraqi people will be made to pay for the invasion and occupation of their own country, however:

"There are two competing needs here: the budgetary need for forces which will be extraordinary, and the need to get it up and running and show the Iraqi people some real results and some real improvement in life," said Andrew Krepinevich, a Pentagon adviser

no cheers

d.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Dunadan
So, not tracking down and disposing of any hidden stashes of WMDs, or Al-Q'aida hideouts, then.

That has to be said that the oil fields will be protected because THAT is the main concern of Russia and FRANCE. That's the only reason why they are against aggresive action in Iraq - is because of the the oil fields.

Nice sentiment. Slightly tarnished by the fact that the Iraqi people will be made to pay for the invasion and occupation of their own country, however:

Yeah - I guess the Iraqi people living in fear and being executed becuase they said the wrong thing or Saddam Hussein didn't like the look in their eye is SO MUCH BETTER.

"Unless we see that kind of change in attitude on the part of Iraq, then how much longer should inspections go on? One month, two months, three months?" he (Colin Powell) asked. "What will be the difference if they are simply trying to get time in order to frustrate the purpose of the inspections?"

Powell also indicated the United States would be willing to forgo any prosecution of the Iraqi president or top members of his Baath Party if Saddam went into exile.

"I think we would be receptive to anything that would get him and his family and his cohorts, the immediate group around him, out of power," he said.

[Sween]

Its all gonna end in tears esspecially all the other major nations pretty muchhave stated they are not in favor of any attack

[samwiselvr2008]

I hope that there will be no war. I really don't want my brother to die. Just an update on my brother jouning the stupid army who only wants to kill him and others, he is now at Boot Camp, wating for them to pick him to joun a group and start. He wrote me a lette that I got last week, I'll post it sometime.

[samwiselvr2008]

I'm gonna type in the letter from my brother, b/c I can't get it to scan in and work right, so here it is, (I love him SO much, please dont send him to war President Bush!) I'm using his spelling, and leaving all of his mistakes in:

Jennifer

how are you sis, believe it or not i'm writing this at 2:30 am, im bored to death, its my duity to walk around and make sure that every one is in bed, well what there training me almost kind of reminds me of Lord of the rings. there training us to in any and all possable ways & about stratigy in battle, wich for some reason reminds me of Lord of the rings. i gues its because you talked about it all the time, so how many times have you seen the movie now. it it over 10? i would say it probally is. well wright me some time & tell me how everything is love you
Richard

How can they send him to war? He's my brother, I'm scared that I may only have about 3 more chances to see him, at the most. I'll miss him so much. I overheard mommy saying that him doing what he is (being a medic) and because of everything else that I don't fill like explaining, that he would be one of the first to go. That means that he will be there through out the whole war. That means that he has a big chance of dieing. Then I won't be able to see him untill heaven

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by samwiselvr2008
How can they send him to war? He's my brother, I'm scared that I may only have about 3 more chances to see him, at the most. I'll miss him so much. I overheard mommy saying that him doing what he is (being a medic) and because of everything else that I don't fill like explaining, that he would be one of the first to go. That means that he will be there through out the whole war. That means that he has a big chance of dieing. Then I won't be able to see him untill heaven

Why did he join the army then? We don't have a draft and we don't have mandatory duty like other countries. Currently - and hopefully it will stay this way - we have an entirely VOLUNTARY military. Obviously your brother decided to join the army - just like my brother decided to join the navy. My cousin has talked about the army. I just told him to make sure he thinks about it before he does and make sure it's something he really wants to do. It's his choice, along with everyone else who joins the military.

The army isn't trying to kill your brother - but the military does go into armed conflict many times. You should have talked to your brother if your brother if you didn't want him to join. The military is not jet skiing through the Carribean or lounging on the beaches of Hawaii. My brother was stationed in Bahrain during 9/11.

[samwiselvr2008]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Why did he join the army then? We don't have a draft and we don't have mandatory duty like other countries. Currently - and hopefully it will stay this way - we have an entirely VOLUNTARY military. Obviously your brother decided to join the army - just like my brother decided to join the navy. My cousin has talked about the army. I just told him to make sure he thinks about it before he does and make sure it's something he really wants to do. It's his choice, along with everyone else who joins the military.

The army isn't trying to kill your brother - but the military does go into armed conflict many times. You should have talked to your brother if your brother if you didn't want him to join. The military is not jet skiing through the Carribean or lounging on the beaches of Hawaii. My brother was stationed in Bahrain during 9/11.

I know that they arn't trying to kill him, I'm just really upset about the whole thing right now, okay? He did decide to joun, and he jounded it before I new. My mom tried to talk him out of it, but by that time had allready sighned up and couldn't change his mind.

[Dunadan]

There's still hope that it won't come to war. If it does, your brother, being a medic, is likely to be behind the front line, I guess.

Thanks for sharing that. Getting a personal account in a discussion like this is a timely reminder of the consequences of what happens in war, with lots of zeros on the end.

Also worth bearing in mind is the fact that many of the lives lost will be civilian.

[samwiselvr2008]

Ya, but my mom said that he would be on the front line, . How can they pute a medic on the front line?

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by samwiselvr2008
Ya, but my mom said that he would be on the front line, . How can they pute a medic on the front line?

Because that's where they're usually needed the most.

At least in traditional wars...in this new kind of war, the front lines can suddenly appear anywhere, as they did in New York, Washington and a field in Pennsylvania on September 11, 2001.

Your brother is very brave and very wonderful. My Web site (which I'm still working on) is about wars in Indochina, and I can tell you every soldier everywhere loves the medics and respects them very much.

[samwiselvr2008]

That'll make his life alot better! he wanted to be a pilot or whatever you call the dudes that drive planes/helicopters, but he's color blind, so he can't.

[wahine]

I heard this hilarious joke.

After getting nailed by a Daisy Cutter, Osama made his way to the pearly gates. There, he is greeted by George Washington.

"How dare you attack the nation I helped conceive!" says Washington, slapping Osama in the face.

Patrick Henry comes up from behind. "You wanted to end the Americans' liberty, so they gave you death!" Henry punches Osama on the nose.

James Madison comes up next, and says "This is why I allowed the Federal government to provide for the common defense!" He drops a large weight on Osama's knee.

Osama is subject to similar beatings from James Monroe, and 65 other people who have the same love for liberty and America. As he writhes on the ground, Thomas Jefferson picks him up to hurl him back toward the gate where he is to be judged.

As Osama awaits his journey to his final very hot destination, he screams - "this is not what I was promised!"

An angel replies "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you...
What the hell did you think I said? "

[The Lady of Ithilien]

Originally posted by samwiselvr2008
That'll make his life alot better! he wanted to be a pilot or whatever you call the dudes that drive planes/helicopters, but he's color blind, so he can't.

Well, I've heard the ones who fly planes called "Zoomies." Don't know about the helicopters.

I read a poem online about medics a couple years ago, while I was working on the first draft of what became a Web site, and looked for it on the Web again tonight, but really couldn't remember the title and couldn't find it again. Too bad -- it was good.

Here is another one I found tonight -- note: not all medics are combat medics, as they also need people around behind the lines to take care of routine health things, and so not all of them will get this Combat Medic Badge. But every soldier that ever was or will be would agree with him: "These men...are heroes to us all."

[samwiselvr2008]

Originally posted by The Lady of Ithilien
Well, I've heard the ones who fly planes called "Zoomies." Don't know about the helicopters.

I read a poem online about medics a couple years ago, while I was working on the first draft of what became a Web site, and looked for it on the Web again tonight, but really couldn't remember the title and couldn't find it again. Too bad -- it was good.

Here is another one I found tonight -- note: not all medics are combat medics, as they also need people around behind the lines to take care of routine health things, and so not all of them will get this Combat Medic Badge. But every soldier that ever was or will be would agree with him: "These men...are heroes to us all."

Thanks!

[jerseydevil]

This is too ridiculous for words.

'Human shields' bus it to Baghdad

LONDON, England (CNN) -- Fifty anti-war campaigners have set out from London to Iraq in three double-decker buses and a taxi saying they want to be "human shields."

Members of the Truth Justice Peace Human Shield Action group say the 3,000-mile journey to Baghdad will take two weeks and they hope others will join them along the route.

The campaigners have pledged to stay in Iraq if the country is attacked, forcing the U.S. and Britain to risk bombing their own citizens.

Former UK Labour MP Tony Benn is also making arrangements to travel to Baghdad, where he is hoping to meet Iraqi president Saddam Hussein.

The veteran left-winger met Saddam in 1990 in an unsuccessful bid to avert the original Gulf War.

Benn, who hopes to go to Iraq next week, told the UK's Press Association: "The purpose is to explore the prospects for peace. That is why I went in 1990 and it is important now when you hear America speaking about weeks not months.

"We hear President Bush and Tony Blair every day but we don't hear from Saddam Hussein. It is a good sign that he may be willing to meet me."

Among those travelling on the peace buses are 60-year-old Sue Darling, a former British diplomat and Gordon Sloan, a contestant on the Australian TV show "Big Brother" who became known to millions of viewers as "Donkey Boy."

The group is being led by Ken Nichols O'Keefe, a former U.S. Marine and Gulf War veteran, who renounced his citizenship in 1999 as a protest against U.S. foreign policy.

Speaking at Tower Bridge in central London before the group left in three double-decker Routemaster vehicles, he said: "If we don't get 10,000 people, I think this is a world that will be hard to live in for all of us.

"This conflict will lead to World War Three. We need to stop this war first and foremost, if we don't, shame on us all and pity on us all."

Joe Letts, of Shaftesbury, Dorset, a bus operator who organised the transport and is also taking part in the project, said they expected thousands to join them as they travelled through Europe and he hoped the public would show their support.

He added: "What Bush and Blair are preparing to do in Iraq is totally unjustified. The Iraqi people have suffered enough already."

Do these idiots really think that it's the military's role to work around them when they have put their own lives at risk? They've willingly put their lives in danger - if they get in the way - they made the choice.

i also think they'll be hard pressed to get the 10,000 people they're looking for - except maybe when they get to the Middle East. They may be able to pick up some fellow idiots there.

I wish them the best of luck (sarcasm) I'm sure Saddam Hussein appreciates all the help that they're giving him in allowing him to go on with his lies and deceit. I hope they like supporting a person who kills and tortures his own people so easily.

[Coney]

I saw a couple of representitives of this organisation interviewed on the news this afternoon..........they seemed a littel clueless to be honest

I mean taking direct action for a cause you believe in.......whatever next?

Do these idiots really think that it's the military's role to work around them when they have put their own lives at risk?

Yes it is the military's role to act around them......for whatever reason they are there........they are there in a civilian capacity.........as are millions of Iraq' folks.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Yes it is the military's role to act around them......for whatever reason they are there........they are there in a civilian capacity.........as are millions of Iraq' folks.

The military responisblity only extends so far. If you willing put yourselve out there in this kind of situation - you are no longer a non-combative.

Reporters are protected by the military when they do their war correspondence. But if a reporter repeatedly takes risks, puts themselves in the line of fire - then the military personnel - will and has told them that their life is in their hands and we can no longer be responsible for looking after them.

The military's responibility is first to fight and win the war. Of course they attempt to reduce human casualities - but not when people WILLINGLY put themselves in that position. The idiots going to Baghdad are not innocent bystanders that just happen to be caught there - they know what the situation is and the risks involved. If they get killed in the fighting - they made their choice.

[Coney]

The military responisblity only extends so far. If you willing put yourselve out there in this kind of situation - you are no longer a non-combative.

Where on earth did you dig that fact from?

Were the chinese student demonstrators "combative" as the tanks rolled over them in Tiearnaman Square?

Is it then justified that every civilian who supports there country but does not bear arms is killed?.....including women and children?

Reporters are protected by the military when they do their war correspondence. But if a reporter repeatedly takes risks, puts themselves in the line of fire - then the military personnel - will and has told them that their life is in their hands and we can no longer be responsible for looking after them.

Yes it is their choice.....it is also the militaries choice whom to kill.

The idiots going to Baghdad are not innocent bystanders that just happen to be caught there -

Well, from the interview I saw today they state that they are going to be integrated with the civilian population.....they have had contacts in Bhagdad of several years.......were you under the impression that they would be stood at the gates of Bhagdad waving banners or something?

If they get killed in the fighting - they made their choice.

As do the people who kill them......

More News-
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?click...5H350&set_id=1

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Where on earth did you dig that fact from?

Were the chinese student demonstrators "combative" as the tanks rolled over them in Tiearnaman Square?

How can you compare Tieneman square to the Iraq situation? There was no war - they were peacefully protesting. It's completely different. If people put themselves in the line of fire when a war is going on - there is no responsibilty for the military to protect them. The role of the military is to win the war. I also think that the military should work to reduce civilian casualties. Under the goal of zero civilian casualties though - we'd still be trying to invade Berlin.

Is it then justified that every civilian who supports there country but does not bear arms is killed?.....including women and children?

If they put themselves up as human sheilds - then they had made that choice. If they stand between the American forces and the Iraqi forces then they have made their choice.

Yes it is their choice.....it is also the militaries choice whom to kill.

It's the military's resposibilty to not shoot them if they put themselves in the line of fire.

Well, from the interview I saw today they state that they are going to be integrated with the civilian population.....they have had contacts in Bhagdad of several years.......were you under the impression that they would be stood at the gates of Bhagdad waving banners or something?

I imagine that some of the more fanaticals will attempt to come between the Iragi and American armies and then scream that civilians are being targetted or killed.

As do the people who kill them......

Accidents happen - all they seem to want to do is to increase civilian casualties - namely by sacrifising themselves.

I say let them put themselves in harm way. They're adults - they've made their choice. The military's responsibility is not to protect their lives.

Nichols's planned human shield convoys are one of several such efforts around the world to mobilise activists in Iraq as a deterrent against military strikes on Baghdad.

The new human shield plans revive memories of the 1991 Gulf War when President Saddam Hussein forcibly held thousands of Western hostages after his invasion of Kuwait.

Many were put near sensitive sites in an attempt to stop attacks that proved futile, although there are not thought to have been any casualties among the Western hostages.

There, a campaign led by leftist parties and civic bodies is seeking 100 000 shield volunteers.

Baghdad has welcomed the plans.

But those forcibly used as human shields by Saddam in 1991 are stunned others are volunteering to do it.

"Putting yourself in danger is not going to help at all," said John Nicol, a British air force flyer shot down during the first strike against Saddam in 1991 and later paraded on Iraqi television.

He was moved around by the Iraqis to various potential targets and he experienced allied bombing nearby.

[Coney]

*shakes head* JD your talking as though the invasion of Iraq is a fore-gone conclusion.......in fact your attitude seems to be that Iraq must be taken over whatever the odds.....

Accidents happen - all they seem to want to do is to increase civilian casualties - namely by sacrifising themselves.

I say let them put themselves in harm way. They're adults - they've made their choice. The military's responsibility is not to protect their lives.

That is just unbelievable.....I've never posted with anyone with so little compassion for other's beliefs.......however misguided those beliefs are.

If they put themselves up as human sheilds - then they had made that choice. If they stand between the American forces and the Iraqi forces then they have made their choice.

Even more unbelievable........these are human lives your talking about, not sheafs of wheat in a field.

How can you compare Tieneman square to the Iraq situation? There was no war - they were peacefully protesting.

These people are peacefully protesting, they carry no guns...

Ah well.....I'm seeing a whole new side of you JD......