Abortion.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I think my answer here will deal with one of Gwaimir's questions as well.

The mother does have the right because she has to make this decision.

No, she doesn't. She has the opportunity to, much as I have the opportunity to slide a knife between my room-mate's ribs each night as he sleeps.

Ultimately, the fetus is part of the mother's body, and she not only has the right, but the obligation to make decisions about her body

A thing cannot at one and the same time be itself a sentient entity, and also be only a part of the body of another. It is incompatible.

The mother has to decide that if the baby is born, can she really give it life? Can she provide for it and see it to adulthood? Not everyone has these resources.

She can. Maybe not as well as she would like, but she can. Or, if she absolutely cannot, she can put it up for adoption, or leave it at an orphanage. I still maintain that she has no right, whether there be a physical joining or no, to decide that the fetus will never, ever live.

Earlier when I said that abortions should be for when its absolutely necessary, what I was being unclear about is I believe if someone is going to have an abortion, it is absolutely necessary. People don't have this incredibly painful (emotionally and physically) unless to them, it is necessary. That's what I meant, but I didn't phrase it well.

Absolutely necessary for what? Every single action is absolutely necessary for something or other.

[Mirth]

Pro-choice. All the way. Men have the right of choice. Always have. Why shouldn't women?

A woman is most vulnerable when she is pregnant. If she is in an abusive relationship, the abuse escalates.

The fact is, women died when abortion was illegal. Back street butchers. NO anesthetic. Not even sterile conditions. Women who could not find an abortionist often did themselves major damage trying to abort.

I for one will be glad when abortion is strictly between a woman and her doctor. Where is the FDA and that abortion pill, and why does it always take so long for the FDA to approve something for women? Viagra passes thru the approval process in record time...buncha gray haired old men ...

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Mirth

Pro-choice. All the way. Men have the right of choice. Always have. Why shouldn't women?

Now wait a minute, men have the right of choice? We cant even HAVE babies, Madam

A woman is most vulnerable when she is pregnant. If she is in an abusive relationship, the abuse escalates.

Not all abortions are emergencies.

The fact is, women died when abortion was illegal. Back street butchers. NO anesthetic. Not even sterile conditions. Women who could not find an abortionist often did themselves major damage trying to abort.

I don't know how personal we can get with these olden-times women, but how do we know they absolutely HAD to abort? With modern medicine etc, most of those old-times troubles can be prevented, I imagine.

will be glad when abortion is strictly between a woman and her doctor. Where is the FDA and that abortion pill, and why does it always take so long for the FDA to approve something for women? Viagra passes thru the approval process in record time...buncha gray haired old men ...

Did you know my mom had 11 children, she's 50 and she still has dark brown hair? Not a grey speck in sight...and it's a benefit of having children, you actually look younger the more children you have.

I think it's true, I've seen mothers who had just one or two kids, and their hair is starting to gray, and they cant be much oler/younger than my mom...

[brownjenkins]

Something like the abortion pill would be the best.

Does anyone in the anti-abortion camp here feel that controlling pregnancy that early on, as in the first day or two, is still wrong?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Something like the abortion pill would be the best.

Does anyone in the anti-abortion camp here feel that controlling pregnancy that early on, as in the first day or two, is still wrong?

I would call it "messing around", but not murder.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Did you know my mom had 11 children, she's 50 and she still has dark brown hair? Not a grey speck in sight...and it's a benefit of having children, you actually look younger the more children you have.

I think it's true, I've seen mothers who had just one or two kids, and their hair is starting to gray, and they cant be much oler/younger than my mom...

Is there really a correlation here? Or is your mom a young looking person who also has a large family?

My mom is 57 without a speck of grey hair, and she only has two children. Some people just look younger than others.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

Is there really a correlation here? Or is your mom a young looking person who also has a large family?

My mom is 57 without a speck of grey hair, and she only has two children. Some people just look younger than others.

Well, maybe it isn't a flawless system...

You'd think the stress of raising 11 kids would put the fear in ya, but, what can I say?

(maybe your mom is dying here hair when you'r not looking? ...or my mom, for that matter)

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Did you know my mom had 11 children, she's 50 and she still has dark brown hair? Not a grey speck in sight...and it's a benefit of having children, you actually look younger the more children you have.

I think it's true, I've seen mothers who had just one or two kids, and their hair is starting to gray, and they cant be much oler/younger than my mom...

My mom is 53, has some grey hairs and she raised two kids. She insist we're the cause of the majority of the grey hairs. I can only imagine what a mother of 11 would have to go through...

Nah, I don't think there's any thruth in the statement that the more children you have, the younger you will look. Besides, there are way too many other factors that will have a greater influence than the number of children.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

My mom is 53, has some grey hairs and she raised two kids. She insist we're the cause of the majority of the grey hairs. I can only imagine what a mother of 11 would have to go through...

Nah, I don't think there's any thruth in the statement that the more children you have, the younger you will look. Besides, there are way too many other factors that will have a greater influence than the number of children.

Ok, so maybe not the number you have, but how horrible it was to give birth to you...

But I think there is something in this...mark my words, in a couple of years every woman on earth is going to be having dozens of babies...it's going to be the new trend after abortion dies down.

[Earniel]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

Ok, so maybe not the number you have, but how horrible it was to give birth to you...

Hahah, didn't see that one coming. [EDIT: You try communicating in another language, buster, and we'll see how well you fare]

But really, if things how they will be later on in life would already show up at the time of birth, I think there would be quite a number of people who are suddenly no longer in a hurry to have kids...

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Eärniel

Hahah, didn't saw that one coming.

It came at you, but you declined to saw at it?

But really, if things how they will be later on in life would already show up at the time of birth, I think there would be quite a number of people who are suddenly no longer in a hurry to have kids...

Think of it though, can you imagine headlines that say: Fountain of Youth Found! Have tons of kids and you're set...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Something like the abortion pill would be the best.

Does anyone in the anti-abortion camp here feel that controlling pregnancy that early on, as in the first day or two, is still wrong?

Yes.

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I would call it "messing around", but not murder.

Why? Do you think life begins at implantation? At visibility to the naked eye ("coming to the shores of light", as Lucretius says, who, by the by, is quite, quite raunchy )?

Originally Posted by Eärniel

My mom is 53, has some grey hairs and she raised two kids. She insist we're the cause of the majority of the grey hairs. I can only imagine what a mother of 11 would have to go through...

Especially when one of them is You Know Who...

Originally Posted by hekky

But I think there is something in this...mark my words, in a couple of years every woman on earth is going to be having dozens of babies...

Even the nuns???

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Even the nuns???

...Well, if you were a smart little boy, you'd have read in context, and known that I meant every woman capable...which does not include nuns

[Gwaimir Windgem]

*Inigo*
"Why do you say that word? I do not think it means what you think it means."

That is, capable. It indicates the possibility, and it is possible (as Maria Monk tells us ).

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

*Inigo*
"Why do you say that word? I do not think it means what you think it means."

That is, capable. It indicates the possibility, and it is possible (as Maria Monk tells us ).

Ok, every woman who wants to...

[Gwaimir Windgem]

All right then, you got me there...but what about those who are barren, or nearly so? I'm afraid your generalisatio just will not work.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Mirth

Where is the FDA and that abortion pill, and why does it always take so long for the FDA to approve something for women? Viagra passes thru the approval process in record time...buncha gray haired old men ...

Hello, welcome and

Yeah it's funny that.

Mind you, I'm sure there a few gray haired old women who are grateful for sildenafil. Maybe THAT'S the secret of your mum's lustrous locks, Hector.

[brownjenkins]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Yes.

How about contraception (before the egg is fertilized)?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

How about contraception (before the egg is fertilized)?

Yes.

What with being a Papist and all.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by brownjenkins

Something like the abortion pill would be the best.

Does anyone in the anti-abortion camp here feel that controlling pregnancy that early on, as in the first day or two, is still wrong?

I say yes to that. I'm against all forms of artificial contraceptives.