UK Politics

[Janny]

'Option' is a funny word in that context, no?

Have you seen the polls today? It's like Mr Brown is suffering all the anti-Labour feeling due to Iraq, and just about every other event of the last 9 years, on top of the popular dislike for his coronation.

I didn't see much of the speech, but it seemed pretty meh. And I wish news reporters would stop saying that all these speeches are well received. They're at the party conference! And even then some of them are only just well received. I mean even Lib Dems were laughing at Ming: The Movie.

Potential for fun: Dream Cabinet

[Janny]

Bye bye, Tony. Almost a tear in the eye, eh?

Or there would be if he were actually leaving!

(Btw, I *tentatively* predict some kind of snap resignation, to spanner-ify the works of the Tory conference)

[hectorberlioz]

Sad, IMO, I like the guy personally...

[Last Child of Ungoliant]

thank god he's going, cant stand that creature at all

[The Gaffer]

Very strong speech yesterday; tis what Bliar is best at. As a party, they haven't made nearly enough out of what they've achieved (most of which is more down to Brown than Bliar). Minimum wage, devolution for Scotland and Wales, Human Rights, rights for part-time workers, improved maternity and paternity leave, civil partnerships, massive investments in schools and health care, the list goes on.

The main thing is that they have moved the terms of the debate in public services; no longer is a party electable if they want to cut funding.

I think I agree with you, janny, he will go when he thinks we least expect it.

[Lief Erikson]

Blair's withdrawal from office is very saddening. He has been a great and strong leader in difficult times.

[hectorberlioz]

So Gaffer, exactly what is meant by "Conservative" over there? I suspect it has to do with economics, largely...

[sun-star]

Now there's a question...

[Janny]

sun-star has issues with economics :P She is also using my comuter...

Since she's here to correct me, I'll have a go at it. I think the first thing to realise (as we appreciate from watching your fine political dramas) is that American politics is a lot further right than British politics. This is a general thing, and I wouldn't work too hard trying to ally the parties over the Atlantic - especially recently since Mr Blair is sometimes accused of being a closet Conservative, and the issues such as the environment (usually a left wing issues) has been pushed hard by the right.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Janny

sun-star has issues with economics :P She is also using my comuter...

Since she's here to correct me, I'll have a go at it. I think the first thing to realise (as we appreciate from watching your fine political dramas) is that American politics is a lot further right than British politics. This is a general thing, and I wouldn't work too hard trying to ally the parties over the Atlantic - especially recently since Mr Blair is sometimes accused of being a closet Conservative, and the issues such as the environment (usually a left wing issues) has been pushed hard by the right.

So basically, it's a given that all brit politicians are "left" by our standards...
...and when they accuse Blair of being a "conservative" they obviously mean the Party?

[Gwaimir Windgem]

No, they mean he dresses conservatively. Doesn't wear enough flashy colours and all that.

[sun-star]

Yes and no. It's not so much a matter of him being conservative, because in most ways he isn't, as of him not being Labour as it was typically understood from its origins until Blair took over. He transformed the Labour party and made them massively successful, but he didn't take all of the party with him, especially on public services and foreign policy. To take the health service as an example: the Labour conference has today voted against party policy on the privatisation of parts of the NHS, the use of private investment to fund hospitals, etc. Blair is to the right of Old Labour on this, but it's still not what from a US perspective you'd call conservative - I guess you think of a nationalised health service as being the next thing to socialism anyway?

[Janny]

Possibly. *looks around for help* I would say the natural (pre-1997) sister-party of the Democrats would be the Conservatives, yes.

No, by closet conservative (note the small 'c') they mean his policies are right-leaning(especially where he is in agreement with the American President) rather than that he is like a Tory (which would be a large 'C').

'Right-wing' is also a synonym for 'bad', I would say... though those on my left would probably disagree!

EDIT- cf. sun-star for generally being much correcter...
Yes, health care! That's the whopping big example I couldn't think of...

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by sun-star

Yes and no. It's not so much a matter of him being conservative, because in most ways he isn't, as of him not being Labour as it was typically understood from its origins until Blair took over. He transformed the Labour party and made them massively successful, but he didn't take all of the party with him, especially on public services and foreign policy. To take the health service as an example: the Labour conference has today voted against party policy on the privatisation of parts of the NHS, the use of private investment to fund hospitals, etc. Blair is to the right of Old Labour on this, but it's still not what from a US perspective you'd call conservative - I guess you think of a nationalised health service as being the next thing to socialism anyway?

Originally Posted by Janny

Possibly. *looks around for help* I would say the natural (pre-1997) sister-party of the Democrats would be the Conservatives, yes.

No, by closet conservative (note the small 'c') they mean his policies are right-leaning(especially where he is in agreement with the American President) rather than that he is like a Tory (which would be a large 'C').

'Right-wing' is also a synonym for 'bad', I would say... though those on my left would probably disagree!

EDIT- cf. sun-star for generally being much correcter...
Yes, health care! That's the whopping big example I couldn't think of...

Tell me if I've picked up right: capitalised C Conservative has to do with what a party does already, it's a written in sort of thing; like Republicans.

[sun-star]

That's right: the two largest parties in the UK are the Labour Party and the Conservative Party (often called the Tory party, or Tories, or a bunch of toffs).

[hectorberlioz]

It's starting to all make sense...

[Janny]

We can do linguistic questions quite nicely if you've got any more but shoot with any policy etc related q's.

[hectorberlioz]

Ok then, how about: how has Blair been able to help in Iraq so long, because surely he isn't the only one...

[Butterbeer]

oh dear ...where to start?

Culturally let alone politically there is a gulf between the Europeans and Americans .... tho' having said that - wide and yet in some ways not really so.

You guys use 'Liberals' to mean democrats ....(in loose terms) culturally far to the right of our middle ground ( a crowded place these days and rather blurry)

we have a party called the Liberals - used to be 'the Whigs' ...which in some ways tells it's own story ...and of course some ways does not.

Think Corderoys ...think schizo.

Now their problem is, both the left and right have stolen their ground in a narrowing of centralisation of Politics - as was said about Blair modernising the Labour party - hence 'New Labour'. The schizo yellow submarines are in a pickle without a clear marrow to lead them into the preserve' promised land ...

it's rather like the safety campaigns aimed at kids when crossing roads ...

Look left ...Look right ...

Whither non modern Wigs?

The joke is they have the Golden opportunity (and have done for a few largely drunken hazy years) but haven't a clue how to distinguish themselves and define a clear electable route.

Blair made his name on the third way .... these guys don't define a third way, they think in tandem in threes .... hence the woollyness.



El inimatable groucho Gaffer:

I think I agree with you, janny, he will go when he thinks we least expect it.

so ...Janny is now expecting it as are you by your agreement ....

Hola Bollox from band aid!! ..that's that then innit? ...Cheers Guys! .. i blame the pair of ye!

[Butterbeer]

You know it's a bit like Thatcher - hated her Guts with a passion ... no really! ... i remember the last election in the 90's she won ..ended up early in the morning with some friends drunk in the dawn like wino's on the street we were so distraught ... but you can look back and (despite still not liking her or her general Ilk) .... in some very important ways she did some things that needed doing ... *shrug* ..things we take for granted now .... the Unions DID need pulling in and we did need a new economic model and an enterprise culture .... in terms of much of that it all went too far ...to a degree the Unions and stuff .... but hate her or despise her (at the time) to a degree it needed doing ... the dead not being buried and s*heet ...

point is, i think Blair - who i never hated ... not to that degree - i remember the 'it can only get better' first election win ... boy that was fun ... i so hated the Tories at that point - as did even their supporters seemingly by then...

i think Blair despite his poodle trimming expenses and whatnot done Ok - i work that on the assumption you gonna hate em all anyway .... at some point ...but in general the world changes with new faster and more dangerous changes and threats ...we are in the middle of the biggest technologiacl and Global polarity change since the Industrial revolution ..the emergance of a europe that Economically could wipe the bealagured US off the scale and with all the moans about EU troops refuses to pay Billions of Dollars (or Euros as will be the Global currency till the yen ****s us both up) for economic / political hegemony wars (to a degree ...there IS an issue with defence from terrorism and freedom but even the US security agencies on masse have come out and stated the response has heightened the threat - which was the main and to my mind only real coherrent argument against the war in iraq and Afghanistan ... oh and btw ... my respect to the US airforce for their support to the Paras in Afghanistan ..good job boys! ... the RAF need a a kick up the backside ..and to be fair to the RAF investment to make them as eminent as they should be)