REAL debate thread for RELIGION

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Valandil
Hmmm... I think when we look closely at how our definitions differ, we're agreeing with each other more than we appear to be on the surface. There are particular doctrines that it seems we just are not going to agree on, but it has been very interesting to me to hear (read) a good summation of the Catholic viewpoint on these things... even if I'm not to the point of agreement, I understand quite a bit better.

I think this is all quite helpful - just so we're careful that we don't put each other in the position of actually defending our views. We can disagree, but maintain respect and not 'attack' (thereby bringing in the defensive posturing). And I hope I haven't done so, btw. If I have, I apologize for it.

Especially now at Christmastime... I think I'm gonna re-post the one I put up the other day!

I hope so... the last time you guys attacked each other in the name of the "Prince of Peace":

The real losers in the war were the German people. Over 300,000 had been killed in battle. Millions of civilians had died of malnutrition and disease, and wandering, undisciplined troops had robbed, burned, and looted almost at will. Most authorities believe that the population of the Empire dropped from about 21,000,000 to 13,500,000 between 1618 and 1648. Even if they exaggerate, the Thirty Years War remains one of the most terrible in history.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
I hope so... the last time you guys attacked each other in the name of the "Prince of Peace":

Those hungry for power HAVE often used Christianity to rally the troops or justify their cause. If Christianity were not there, anything else would have sufficed.

[Ruinel]

ACK!!! I just came back home from visiting family. My stepfather is a born again christian... and he loves to talk ... please someone talk about anything other than "Jesus", "god" and "accepting god/Jesus into your heart"!!!!

Budhism.. yeah... let's talk about that.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

By sheer coincidence, I happened to have a question to ask about Wicca.

Wiccans often wear/use pentacles (or pentagrams, I can never remember which is which ), right? Now, I know the symbolism in Christianity, and in Satanism, but what is the five-pointed star's symbolism in Wicca?

Not Buddhism, but is that good enough for you?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
...Not Buddhism, but is that good enough for you?

*gasp!* yes!

[Nurvingiel]

I'm really interested in Wicca, yea.

I think... protection? Or balance? My two guesses.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

My guess is the elements of Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Spirit(?), but I don't really have any basis for that.

[Nerdanel]

I was baptized in the Lutheran church of Finland. My parents are not real believers, but they still didn't want to let me stop being a part of the church before I was 18. Guess it's some conservative thought about traditions... But now I'm 18 and no longer a part of that church.
And it sure feels good!

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
ACK!!! I just came back home from visiting family. My stepfather is a born again christian... and he loves to talk ... please someone talk about anything other than "Jesus", "god" and "accepting god/Jesus into your heart"!!!!

How ironic in the Christmas season... just like the occasion on which our Christmas celebration is based: "No room at the inn..."

*winkie-winkie*

[brownjenkins]

My guess is the elements of Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Spirit(?), but I don't really have any basis for that.

you are correct GW

interestingly enough, in early christianity the pentagram was used by some christians to represent the five wounds of christ... but it was later associated with witchcraft and discarded

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
How ironic in the Christmas season... just like the occasion on which our Christmas celebration is based: "No room at the inn..."

*winkie-winkie*

I'm all for not celebrating Christmas all together, if it was up to me entirely. But my relatives keep dragging me back into it as a family thing. *shrugs* Personally, I don't care... but I show up for them, really.

[Valandil]

Originally posted by Ruinel
I'm all for not celebrating Christmas all together, if it was up to me entirely. But my relatives keep dragging me back into it as a family thing. *shrugs* Personally, I don't care... but I show up for them, really.

I know... couldn't resist though. I'm glad you join in with the family... and hope that it lifts your own spirits in some ways anyhow!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by brownjenkins
you are correct GW

interestingly enough, in early christianity the pentagram was used by some christians to represent the five wounds of christ... but it was later associated with witchcraft and discarded

I be smart.

I knew that it was used such in Christianity, (I take it then that pentagram is the "right-side-up" one, btw?), but I thought that the upside-down star was used in satanism, as an inversion or reversal of Christianity, sort of like when some attempt to desecrate the Host, and that it got to be less used, till the only five-pointed star known was the upside down one. (Note: When I say "Satanism", I do not mean any of the many new religions which have started up in recent days)

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Valandil
I know... couldn't resist though. I'm glad you join in with the family... and hope that it lifts your own spirits in some ways anyhow!

It's actually just a really stressful period of time for all.

[Elfmaster XK]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
By sheer coincidence, I happened to have a question to ask about Wicca.

Wiccans often wear/use pentacles (or pentagrams, I can never remember which is which ), right? Now, I know the symbolism in Christianity, and in Satanism, but what is the five-pointed star's symbolism in Wicca?

Not Buddhism, but is that good enough for you?

It's not as simple as just being the sign of the elements. The five pointed star is representative of many things because it is easily associated with traits of humans.

http://www.livingstonemusic.net/pentacle.htm

This link explains the history of the pentagram and some different interpretations of what it defines. Hope it's helpful.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Thanks very much for the link, I found it very interesting indeed, having a personal interest in the symbol.

Sorry it took so long to reply; the time on my internet ran out...

[Drgnslyer]

One thing that i'd like to bring up for debate, and will likely raise lots of discussion, is the origin and purpose of religion in society today.

When you look back in ancient history, the first recorded civilization exists in Mesopotamia, the area of the world where Iraq and Iran are now, right between the Tigress and Euphraties*sp?* rivers.

This fertile land is known as the cradle of civilization. This is the place where the nomads of pre-historic existance settled and created the first cities. The list of achievements of this incredible civilization include the first written language, the first organized law system *hammarubi*, the first organized religions.

This is a personal theroy of mine, and nothing more, but this is how I see the creation of religion.

The nomads were a very spiritual people, and as they were constantly surrounded by ever-changing nature, their supply of varying spiritual experiences...

Once they had settled in one location and built the first cultivated farms *yet another first with this groundbreaking civilization* they realized that being stagnant in one place led to their drifting from their spiritual ways.

Eventually one of the elders or cheiftans would have stepped up and begun re-educating the local population on spiritual stories and legends, and teaching the first few generations of children the spiritual ways.

Eventually, a few of the children grew up and took a firm liking to the spiritual stories, and documented them. These people would have been the first priests. They took their newly dictated spiritual stories, and taught them to the masses...the first religious meetings.

Eventually the masses relied on the priests to teach them, and fitted their meetings into the daily grind of maintaining the farms and their basic survival. They created set times to study their priest's teachings.

As seperation began to form between the priests and the regular masses, people began to both lose their understanding as to the relevance and importance of religion and spirituality, not to mention truly depend upon the priest's to fulfil their spiritual needs, and it was at this point that unfortunately religion became a crutch for much of*though not all* civilization.


My two *or more* cents.

[Nurvingiel]

Wow Drgn, nice post! I think your theory really has merit. I only have one thing to add, but it does not diminish the validity of your theory.

The area between the Tigres and the Euphrates is no longer fertile. The Mesopotamian society collapsed, it is theorized, because their irrigation projects were too intensive. The soils became saline over the years, which led to a decline in food production, and the eventual collapse of the society.

(Actually, I don't know what that has to do with your theory, but I felt it was relevant.)

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Just a thought in relation to your mention of priests:

Interestingly enough, of the great religions which are prominent today, very few have priests. Islam has clerics, Judaism has rabbis (though still people of priestly lineage), Protestantism has ministers/preachers, but as far as I know, only Catholicism and the Eastern Christian churches have priests. Buddhism I don't think does, but I'm not sure about Hinduism?

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
...Sorry it took so long to reply; the time on my internet ran out...

WOW!!! 'ran out'... I'm glad that you were able to catch it! I never thought it could do that.