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#541 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Leif: You never addressed this:
I'm reposting this, because you asked for the information, and duly ignored it.
Quote:
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#542 | |
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: N?n in Eilph (Belgium)
Posts: 14,363
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Quote:
![]() A reason why intelligent design is not mentioned in science class may be because it has no place in evolution. Now I'm not saying that evolution clarely states 'no creator' , it just doesn't deal with that question. Evolution deals with the question of WHAT happens not that of WHO's doing it. Intelligent design is characterised by the WHO-question.
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#543 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Re: Leif: You never addressed this:
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I thought that the enormous, swift changes we've observed over the last million years should have fairly well robbed you of this misconception. You read my post, didn't you? Shifts are sudden, as is in that quote jerseydevil brought up, the person said it can happen over a mere two generations, turning lush vegetation into desert. Evolution trying to keep up with it would be like switching the channels of your television one after another after another instantaneously and trying to gain a good understanding of every single conversation or television show in that split second. Unless you say that all of these environmental fast changes are confined to our last million years, you cannot argue evolution by environment. And I'd also like to hear a good reason why the environment should be changing dramatically and incredibly swiftly just for us, but then throughout the rest of time has been stable. For evolution to move in tandem with the environment, it would have to be amazingly fast, like within one or two generations. If you're going to argue that it did keep up, you'd have to accept the fast evolution theory. And that's something I thought none of you were willing to do. |
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#544 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
Intelligent design is different from the classical creation story though, for it says that God commands and creates everything according to his own purpose and desire. It is impossible for people to prove or disprove, but it is possible for a single person to prove or disprove, and that is by seeking God and asking him to reveal himself to them. |
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#545 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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And you think the idea that creatures evolve back and forth into different creatures to match the environment isn't funny? How do the same creatures appear in different places? Deserts don't appear and dissapear overnight. Creatures follow the margins of the territories they are acclimated to. You have no fossil proof of your silly assertion.
Edit: We could test it by putting some elephants in the desert for 40 years a see if the turn into camels. ![]()
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 11-12-2002 at 11:24 AM. |
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#546 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Jerseydevil or someone, do you know where I could find information on migrations that are irregular and as a response to changing environment?
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#547 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Re: Re: Leif: You never addressed this:
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To base the fact that in one small part of the world may have had quick environmental changes to support a hypothesis that the world environment as a whole makes quick changes is VERY BAD science. Just because the Sahara may go through "quick" changes doesn't mean that the environment as a whole does or that it's the norm. If a scientist only looked at the dust bowl in the midwest, ignoring the causes, they could determine that the environment quickly changes and come to numerous erroneous conclusions. Whereas in truth - the dust bowl was mainly created by man from over use of the land. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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#548 | ||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
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That is because of the lack of intermediate species. If the species have all whipped by so fast (By your model of time, but going by fast evolution), then the lack of intermediate species should be very distressing. As a matter of a fact, we would be expected to find almost on two fossils the same. That is why, for my theory of fast evolution to work, you need to shrink the time alapsed too. That's a big adjustement and way outside of existing theories, and I don't think any of you are willing to make these adjustements to explain things. It fits the evidence, though. Now let's look at the model you are all going by. Evolution says that the environment has been changing extremely slowly and the creatures have been changing with it. Current information shows that the environment has been changing enormously swiftly and the creatures (unless you accept the oasis idea) have been changing-with-it/moving-away-from-it. If you accept that they changed with it, then you accept fast evolution, unless you agree with the idea that Dunadan brought up. If you accept that they are migrating in enormous numbers, then you deal a severe blow to the evolution with environment theory. Going with the oasis idea also gets rid of Natural Selection very effectively. So I pass the floor to you as to how you explain these contradictions. But please don't be annoyed with me if I attempt to poke holes in your ideas now and then. Quote:
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But I don't want you all arguing against my own opinion just now, I'd rather discuss with you how this contradiction can be explained by the current model of evolution. |
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#549 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
I'm not basing my entire statement on what that one scientist said, I'm using that as a small piece of supporting evidence. You've been very well equipped thus far with Internet sites and other information, indeed, in general you've been far more on top of it then me. It shouldn't be such a great hardship to just look in a map. If you really want more evidence, I'll start looking for further information about other parts of the world's environmental changes, but I think that several of such magnitude covering such a vast space should prove a sufficient example. |
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#550 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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Quote:
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As far as my facts, you can go to the library and pick up any book on the subject if you don't like the one I reccommended. The problem with theories that have evidence is that it requires a lot of reading on your part, not writing on my part. As far as poking holes, a whole lot of people a whole lot smarter than you have worked on this theory and you might have just a bit of respect for that. When you've been published, or even graduated from college then maybe, just maybe, you smart ass attitude might not be so totally misplaced. basics
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 11-12-2002 at 12:00 PM. |
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#551 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
Posts: 9,431
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Quote:
And the Sahara only extends through northern Africa - not all the way to China. The article also didn't mention anything about the Gobi being fertile or going through rapid changes. It also does not specify whether it is only sections of the desert that go through changes or if it is the desert in mass. The Sahara is 3.5 million sqaure miles - 9.1 million square kilometers. Can you please supply something that says that the desert as a whole - from the Atlantic to the Red Sea goes through rapid changes every 1500 years. By the way - I always have my Hammond World Atlas Executive Edition right by my computer - so you don't have to tell me to look at a map. [edit] the article does mention Africa going through extreme changes - but doesn't go much further. And as I said - it's currently needs more investigation. Lamont Scientists: African Climate Changes Quickly I'm not a scientist and I can only go off of what the experts say - that means what I watch on TLC, Discovery Channel, read in Discover Magazine, etc.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-12-2002 at 12:16 PM. |
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#552 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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#553 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
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#554 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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From the croc article
Quote:
How does "fast evolution" explain the Madagascar crocs being the same as Nile crocs on the mainland?
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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#555 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
Did you read the post I sent earlier? There was one primary one which really addressed the problem quite well- I can quote it all up here, if you want me to. That's where I describe everything in depth. You've been kind of in and out so perhaps you didn't see it, but I'd be willing to bring it back if you don't want to look for it. I never said that it changed every 1500 years, not at all. My primary post on this subject addresses all of these things that you've asked and brought up here in more depth. Shall I bring it up for you? |
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#556 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Quote:
But please, I stress again, I am NOT trying to prove these theories of mine to any of you. I simply want to discuss the inconsistency I have observed. Quote:
If you don't stop misinterpreting my posts, ignoring almost the entirety of what they say and misconstruing them, I'm going to stop responding to you at all. |
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#557 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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The arcticles only refernece changes in rainfall. They state explicitly there are periods of dessication there is no mention of the idea that during the wet periods the Saudi peninsula is some lush forest area. At best it may become a grassland. Hardly inhospitable to desert life and conducive to migration of more species.
Saudi Rainfall
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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#558 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: somewhere else
Posts: 2,381
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Quote:
For the sake of the discussion please state what theories you will accept. If you say you will not argue the age of the earth and then assume it as younger in a later post then the discussion has no common ground.
__________________
There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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#559 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Re: Re: Leif: You never addressed this:
Quote:
Did you not notice the bit about gradualism? ![]() And what exactly do you think natural selection is? natural selection n. The process in nature by which, according to Darwin's theory of evolution, only the organisms best adapted to their environment tend to survive and transmit their genetic characteristics in increasing numbers to succeeding generations while those less adapted tend to be eliminated.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 11-12-2002 at 02:41 PM. |
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#560 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Yes I know what Natural Selection is, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it. And assuming that creatures built for grasslands and forests survived in deserts for thousands of years is going against Natural Selection.
Yes I noticed the bit about gradualism. And I repeat, these are multiple changes over large expanses of territory over a relatively short period of time. Thousands of years isn't short, but it is short by evolutionary standards. Meanwhile, Cirdan, you are still attacking viewpoints that I personally hold and which I am not trying to impose upon anyone else. I'm not using them as a basis for anything either, I'm trying to discuss the current model. Quote:
I'm not making any assumptions or attempting to impose my own views upon others. Your turning my analysis of the current model and the contradictions into an argument for something that I'm not even trying to uphold right now! Forget faster evolution or faster break-up of the continents if you want, I'm not discussing it. I'm not assuming it. I'm discussing the current model, without any assumptions outside of the current model. If I point later on to evidences for accepting another model (I'm repeating myself to make sure what I'm trying to say gets across), then you're welcome to shoot them down or give alternative points of view. |
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