Why you believe what you believe I

[Nurvingiel]

Oh the pace will pick up alright...

[BeardofPants]

My last post was meant as a summation. It's about all I feel I've got the energy to contribute right now. Moving on!

[Rían]

Shall I go ahead, then?

[EarthBound]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

Well, that's my feelings on this matter as well. Just because we're animals doesn't mean that we should revert back to our baser animalistic tendencies all the time - STOP FRICKIN' BEEPING YOUR #@!#ING HORN YOU MORONIC CARS!!!!... er... where was I? Oh yes, clearly our sentience de-marks us as different from other mammals; clearly our sentience plays a part in our biological, and cultural make-up, and how we interact with the environment; clearly, what we are, WHO we are, is made-up in a large part of where we come from. Our bid to understand the past is what enables us to understand what we are NOW, and where we are going TO.

Between 1966 and 1970 a chimp named Washoe at the University of Nevada were she learned about 140 signs in the standard American Sign Language system used by the deaf.

Dr. Roger Fouts then brought Washoe to the University of Oklahoma - Institute of Primate Studies in 1970.

Where he:

1. Catalogued and examined the subject's specific vocabulary and syntax.
2. Expand the subject's vocabulary.
3. Explore all possibilities of communication, verbal and nonverbal.

His tests showed the subject was capable of communication in the human sense-was truly able to conceptualize.

Washoe the chimp was a rational being!

Remember, it was Dr. Carl Sagan who said it: "How smart does a chimp have to be before killing him constitutes murder?" Indeed, how smart would any animal have to be? (He was famous for much but you youngsters will know him for the movie ‘Contact’ that Jodie Foster performed in, he wrote the book)

Washoe the chimp was well fed, physically comfortable, safe from harm--and yet since she learned to express herself in language humans could understand, there was one phrase--a sentence, really--that she "said" more than any other.

Those words, echoing from a lifetime of sterile captivity, the "voice" from the cage: "Let me out!"

[Rían]

My dog tells me that with his big brown eyes and wagging tail

[Rían]

OK, I'm in the hot seat!

Hmm, where to start? I think I'll just do the chronological thing.

I was born in California, USA. I have 2 sisters (I'm in the middle), and parents that are still married (I'm very blessed!) My dad came from a church background (Southern Methodist), my mom somewhat of a church background. We grew up attending the local Methodist church on Sundays. I still remember waiting on the patio after service, watching my mom talk to her friends and thinking "when is she gonna be DONE?"

I made the decision to actually become a Christian when I was about 12 or so. I heard the pastor talk about the Bible during the years before that, and I knew in my heart that it was good to try to be good, but that was about it. Then came a special church weekend program, called a Lay Witness Mission. (a "lay" person is someone who is NOT a pastor - so the idea of the weekend was that people who were NOT pastors were sharing about their faith in God.) That was the first time I remember really hearing and understanding the Gospel ("gospel" means "good news" - it refers to the news that Jesus, God's Son, came to earth to bear the penalty of our sins by dying for us on the cross). I kinda knew that story in my head before, but had never connected with it personally like I did that weekend. What made me connect was the people that talked about it - they were really loving. I can still vividly picture the face of the guy that shared the gospel with me - a big, tall Japanese fellow - and the love in his eyes melted my heart, and I understood that I had sinned (this just means that I had fallen short of God's perfect and loving standard of behavior - for example, I had lied before) and that I needed help. I knew my life was messed up, and it was very clear to me that I needed help from God, so I made a decision to acknowledge this to God in prayer, and ask for His forgiveness for my sins, and ask Jesus to be Lord of my life. And this is basically what becoming a Christian means - it is a decision one makes, and it affects your entire life (for the BETTER, I'd like to add! )

Well, the problem with a weekend like that, and a church like the one I grew up in, is that after the weekend was over, I had no follow-up or example to show what living as a Christian really meant (the church leadership didn't seem to have a clue), so I just kept living the same - trying to be good. And yet ... and yet there was definitely something different. I had connected with God in a way that was NOT there before I had made that definite decision. And the connection was somehow like crossing a bridge into a different country - I knew I was different somehow, and it was a permanant difference.

So finally I went to college, and got into a Christian group where I was able to see what living a life as a Christian ("Christian", btw, just means "little Christ" - i.e., one who strives to be like Christ) really looked like on a day-to-day basis. I saw that in order to be a "little Christ", one must know what Christ did and says - so that's why I needed to read the Bible and pray. Unfortunately, the group was also rather legalistic, and sadly, too often, following rules was more important than what was in a person's heart. Or at least that's how I understood it. And I feel like if I ever run across someone I knew in college, I would like to beg their forgiveness for being such a jerk. I was naturally a task-oriented person, and being legalistic was very easy for me. It also kills the heart

One really good thing that happened in college, tho, was that even for a jerk like me, reading the Bible and praying will still do good, and help you. See, all sorts of people become Christians - really nice people all the way to real jerks - the important thing is that change happens - real change - because the Bible deals with the heart, not the outward appearance of things.

So anyway, I got out of college and into the work force. Had a really good job, went to a singles group at church (found a good church), then one day, I came across this tall, dark-haired guy with lovely eyes that asked me if he could bring me a glass of lemonade ... Wedding bells 9 months later

(con't)

[Rían]

(con't)

Oh, I forgot to say another thing about college - one thing I'm eternally (literally ) grateful for is that in college, I came across the writings of C.S. Lewis. Before that, I had this vague (and idiotic) (and unfortunately common) idea that faith was somehow this blind leap thing. If someone asked me why I was a Christian, I would have said "well, I just think it's right!" As I read Lewis's works, I saw that Christianity was, at its core, rational - HIGHLY rational. It hung together logically. And that was a HUGE thing for me.

So anyway, during those years after marriage, my husband and I attended church, got into various ministries at church, had kids, bought a house, etc. And God continued to be the center of our lives. As the years went on, I just saw more and more that what the Bible teaches is just ... right. It works. I'm not quite sure how to express it any better than that right now. Even the counter-intuitive things in the Bible somehow were right, altho one wouldn't think they would be (example - it's more blessed to give than receive).

Things changed a bit when I was pregnant with our second child. There were some odd things at the beginning of the pregnancy, and at 6 months, we found out he had severe physical birth defects. The option of abortion was offered, which we declined, because we know that this didn't happen, like, when God was taking a nap or something! (Mentally he's fine, physically he basically just has little stubs for legs, along with some other minor skeletal defects, like he can't lift his hands above his head.) A mother-to-be always says "I don't care what sex the baby is, as long as it's healthy!" Well, we just came up against a mother's worst nightmare - and all I can say is that we have found that God is deeper than any grief. Just like Iluvatar with Melkor, God takes evil and makes a greater good.

Then all the fuss came out about LOTR movies, and I re-got-into his books, and all I can say is that God continued the healing in Niggle's Parish (Dylan will know what I mean, and maybe some of you guys, too - one of JRRT's coolest stories!)

To sum up WHY I believe what I believe, now that I've given a little history of my belief - I have found NO other worldview that is as logically solid and as fully sufficient to deal with any question or situation - ANY question or situation - as Christianity. See, Christianity isn't some philosophy made up around a campfire - Christianity is a TRUTH CLAIM - it says "THIS IS THE WAY REALITY IS", and it calls us to evaluate whether or not we think it's true - and if you DO believe it's true, you need to take action on it.

And not only do I find Christianity to be the most logically consistent worldview out there, and the one that is validated the most by what I see in the world, it is also the worldview that IMO deals with the heart in a way that no other worldview does. See, I grew up in an intellectual world - I scored so high in IQ tests that the school administrators wouldn't tell my parents what I scored, because they thought it would make them treat me differently from my siblings. (and the ONLY reason I tell this is because many of the Mooters are extremely intelligent, and will be able to identify with some of the things I"ll share.) I know the intellectual world - my idol growing up was Mr. Spock (of Star Trek fame) - and the intellectual world was not sufficient for me. It's cold, dead It didn't deal with the aches and joys of my heart. I stuffed my heart down for years - YEARS - until God made it so painful to keep stuffed that I had to acknowledge its existence - and all I can say is that now my heart aches with joy so much sometimes that it's painful! Truly, in the presence of God, there is fullness of joy. I can't even express how much joy and love I feel sometimes.

Yes, there is sorrow and pain and strife and tedium in life - great sorrow, sometimes, as when I watch my son watch other kids run around - yet as Paul says in the book of Romans in the Bible, these things are as nothing compared to the joy set before us. And Christianity, like NO other worldview I've seen, has the - well, there's really no other expression that says it so well as it has the balls to deal with EVERYTHING - even a son with handicaps, and even with a health situation like mine (I have a chronic illess that leaves me in varying levels of pain and fatigue daily). I have just seen nothing like it - nothing even close - and I've thought and read a LOT (one of the few advantages of a health situation like mine - I can't go on hikes and things like that, but by golly, I can READ and THINK!) It is logically consistent, it deals with the heart - it just rings TRUE, over and over and over again.

Well, that's enough for a start, altho I could say LOADS more.

Any questions?

[Rían]

Oh, and I wanted to tell a story, in little bits, during my time on the hotseat ...

from The Journey of Desire, by John Eldridge
Once upon a time there lived a sea lion who had lost the sea.

He lived in a country known as the barren lands. High on a plateau, far from any coast, it was a place so dry and dusty that it could only be called a desert. A kind of coarse grass grew in patches here and there, and a few trees were scattered across the horizon. But mostly, it was dust. And sometimes wind, which together make one very thirsty. Of course, it must seem strange to you that such a beautiful creature should wind up in a desert at all. He was, mind you, a sea lion. But things like this do happen.

How the sea lion came to the barren lands, no one could remember. It all seemed so very long ago. So long, in fact, it appeared as though he had always been there. Not that he belonged in such an arid place. How could that be? He was, after all, a sea lion. But as you know, once you have lived so long in a certain spot, no matter how odd, you come to think of it as home.

[Nurvingiel]

Thank you for sharing so much of your personal life with us RÃ*an! That was the lovliest post I've seen here! *mega hug*

I have one question to kick it off.

You know a great deal about Christianity, the intricacies and meanings of many teachings, etc. Your knowledge of it is most likely much more extensive than any other world religion.
If you had been raised by say, Buddhist parents in a Buddhist society, and felt and knew as much about Buddhism (instead of your knowledge and experiences of Christianity) do you think you would be Buddhist instead? Would you (imagine yourself in this situation) feel that Buddhism was the most logical and right worldview for you? Or would you practice Buddhism and enjoy many aspects, but feel like there was something missing?

I hope this question makes sense. Basically I'm asking what if you replaced everything you said about Christianity in your post with Buddhism (or some other major world religion).

[Rían]

*mega hug back* you're welcome

*reads further*

One question? Only ONE question ... from Nurvi?!?!

*thud*

I think I need to go lie down for a bit, I'm in shock!

[Nurvingiel]

Lol!! I noticed you neatly avoided answering it though...

I do have another question as well...

What is the nature of sin for you? Are some sins worse than others? How would someone redeem themselves of sin? What happens to a sinner (if they haven't redeemed themselves) when they die?

Do you believe in Hell? What do you think it's like, if so?

Is that better?

[Rían]

Well, I'm not a morning person, so I wanted to wait until my brain was a bit more awake before I answered it!

So here's your first question:

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

If you had been raised by say, Buddhist parents in a Buddhist society, and felt and knew as much about Buddhism (instead of your knowledge and experiences of Christianity) do you think you would be Buddhist instead? Would you (imagine yourself in this situation) feel that Buddhism was the most logical and right worldview for you? Or would you practice Buddhism and enjoy many aspects, but feel like there was something missing?

I hope this question makes sense. Basically I'm asking what if you replaced everything you said about Christianity in your post with Buddhism (or some other major world religion).

These types of questions require a little thought, because if there are enough "what if's", then I think they are unanswerable, in the sense of the entire universe would have to be different, and we don't really know what a different universe would be like, if that makes sense.

So I'm going to answer it in a way that I think makes sense, and also honors the intent of your question.

To answer the second paragraph first, I don't think I could take my post and replace "Christianity" with "Buddhism" (or whatever) without destroying intellectual and/or heart integrity. In ALL worldviews that I've studied, I always - always - come across logical errors and what I would call "heart errors" - i.e., things that don't jive with what's in my heart and soul.

Now perhaps I could conceive of an alternate universe where I could replace "Christianity" with "Buddhism" (or whatever) with intellectual and heart integrity, but I don't think that's a very profitable kind of thought to pursue - I prefer to deal with reality in questions like these, esp. because if Christianity IS true, then there are things to do! IOW, I sincerely think that there IS a true state of the universe, and if there are conflicting thoughts about how the universe truly is, then they can't all be right. Either NONE are right, or ONE is right. Personally, I think Christianity reflects the true state of the universe, and this is confirmed over and over by my observations of the reality that I see all around me.


Now for the first paragraph: the way I'll answer is that I'm going to assume that reality is the same - i.e., that Christianity is the actual true state of the universe - but that I am in a different situation.

Basically, putting myself in a situation where my parents were Buddhist and I was raised Buddhist and lived in a Buddhist society, I image I would be a Buddhist, too, at least at first. I think at least at first, kids will follow what their parents model. However, we all know of stories where kids, as they reach maturity and think things thru for themselves more, choose to go against their parents' beliefs, for whatever reasons (sadly, I think it's often not only intellectual ones). So to take your words, I think that while I remained a Buddhist, I would indeed "feel like there was something missing", because there WOULD be something missing. I would NOT have been restored to a relationship with the God that loves me.

Now I'm going to try to head off some crys of protest here I often hear statements like "Well, I'm NOT a Christian, and I'm perfectly happy!" Well, with all due respect, balderdash! If you're (not you, personally, Nurvi - "you" in the general sense) claiming to be perfectly happy, then I must assume that your wardrobe consists of white vests with long sleeves that tie in the back, or perhaps you're on mind-altering drugs (reminds me of my kids - they STILL freak out when I say I'm going to the drug store, even tho I've explained countless times that there are perfectly legal drugs as well as the drugs that police officers warn about in anti-drug programs!) LIFE HAS SORROW - that's all there is to it. EVERYONE has sorrows. Everyone also has joys. That's reality, IMO. I am a Christian - and I still have sorrows - tremendous sorrows - as well as joys - tremendous-er joys! I'm NOT saying that non-Christians have terrible, sorrow-filled lives. I AM saying, tho, that I firmly believe, and have found experientially, that it's different after becoming a Christian. There is logic, meaning, and purpose behind the sorrows. There are comforts that I have in dealing with the sorrows that are NOT available to non-Christians. And there is the knowledge that our sorrows are only temporary - and there is joy for all eternity.

One of the coolest verses in the Bible is in Psalms, where it says that God keeps our tears in a bottle. God cares for our sorrows - He bore our sorrows and griefs - and He heals us, and offers us eternal life in His presence, where there is fullness of joy, and NO tears. There are NO tears in heaven. Evil cannot always keep good hostage - there WILL be an end to wrongs, and any wrongs here can be turned over to God and used for His GREATER purpose. I have known great sorrow, for example, with my physical problems. Yet turned over to a loving God, in His hands, He has used this sorrow to gently and tenderly teach me SO many good things - SO many - like compassion, patience, empathy, understanding, reaching out to others in need, etc. - that I can say it's worth it - it's WORTH it - to have had this sorrow. And I know that it's only temporary, and in eternity, I'll be running and leaping for joy, while still having the valuable knowledge that sorrow, in the hands of God, has taught me.

[Rían]

And one more note on sorrows - even if a person has a really, really happy life, and nothing that they would consider sorrow, then at the very least the sorrow in the world around them - the children dying of hunger, the corruption, the rape, torture and murder of innocents - should make them sorrowful

[Elfhelm]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And one more note on sorrows - even if a person has a really, really happy life, and nothing that they would consider sorrow, then at the very least the sorrow in the world around them - the children dying of hunger, the corruption, the rape, torture and murder of innocents - should make them sorrowful

Some stats on hunger. Truly sorrowful.
http://library.thinkquest.org/C00229...sent/stats.htm

[Rían]

Yes, really tragic. That's why our family and church gives so much support to a truly wonderful children's charity. My husband's a board member, my brother-in-law works for them. It's childrenshungerfund.org

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Nurvingiel

I do have another question as well...

What is the nature of sin for you? Are some sins worse than others? How would someone redeem themselves of sin? What happens to a sinner (if they haven't redeemed themselves) when they die?

Do you believe in Hell? What do you think it's like, if so?

Is that better?

Whew! Yes, that's better - I was getting worried about you!

I like how G.K. Chesterton puts it : "[Christians] prove conclusively what the Bible teaches about the Fall!" IOW, when looking at Christians, it's obvious that they sin!

We pretty much live in a post-Christian society, so I think it's important to clarify terms, as I tried to do in my previous post. "Sin" is one of those terms that has some wrong connotations to it now. Sin just means "falling short" of the standard. A sinner is one who has fallen short of the perfect "standard" of behavior, as described by God in the 10 commandments. A sinner can be a person that has done really terrible things, like murder. A sinner is also one who is considered to be a "good" person, but has maybe told a few little lies here and there. I think if a person is honest, they will acknowledge that their behavior has not been perfect - and this makes them fall into the category of "sinner". It's just that simple.

And even if a person is not aware of the 10 Commandments, yet they ARE aware of things being right/wrong. The Bible describes, and I see it to be universally true, that God's basic rules of right/wrong are written in people's hearts, and their OWN HEARTS justify or condemn their actions. IOW, what we call a "conscience" is in EVERY person, providing encouragement to do what is right and guilt over when they do wrong. And this, to me, is a strong indication that Christianity is true - the presence of the sense of right/wrong. It doesn't even matter that there are differences in what is considered right or wrong - just the mere PRESENCE of the CONCEPT of right and wrong is really quite profound, with amazing implications, IMO. And even tho right/wrong differs in cultural details, yet it DOES NOT DIFFER in the underlying principles, IMO.

I don't think it really matters if some sins are worse than others - I think there are some sins that are worse than others, but it doesn't really matter - we ALL have sinned, and need redemption.

[Elfhelm]

I have always been convinced by Jesus on that topic. Caring for others is the right thing to do.

But I wonder how caring for others is tied to religion. Wouldn't an act of charity without expectation of eternal reward be more pure?

It seems to me that someone can be filled with doubt about, say, the resurrection, yet still know in their heart that acts of charity are absolutely necessary. In the 60s the Catholic Church made several statements collectively called Vatican II. I was a kid at the time, but I recall my mother expaining to me that one of the statements was that truly good people, she used Gandhi for an example, will be admitted to heaven.

Which isn't to say I don't acknowledge the kindnesses people do through church groups. There is so much more that a group of people can do than one person on his own.

[Rían]

ok - I'll see if I can answer the rest in one post -

"How would someone redeem themselves of sin?"
It's impossible.

But first, let me back up and explain something. Some people say "Hey, I'm a pretty good person! Why should God be such a harsh guy? Why can't He be more understanding? Sure, maybe I cheated on my taxes, but the government deserves it! It's not like I murdered anyone!"

There's 2 things going on here. First of all, if a person says something like that, then I guess I would just say "so where do YOU think the line should be drawn? Perhaps cheating on taxes, with an occasional small lie, and everyone one worse than that go to Hell?" Well, really, that just doesn't make any sense. Different people would draw different lines, and why should your line have any more authority than mine? The only SENSIBLE answer is what God did - ANY sin requires redemption.

And as far as harsh - well, again, let's just think this through logically. I think if I pointed out a man and said, "That guy is a pedophile. I have video of him molesting children." then you would probably say, "Well, for goodness' sake, turn the video into the police!" You, my dear, have a sense of justice (another way we're made in the image of God, btw). Yet people will say that the guy should be in jail ONLY to get him away from kids.

Yet I challenge anyone that says that to REALLY look into their hearts - would you REALLY be comfortable if we put the guy in prison and said, "OK, now he's in prison and he won't molest any more kids. But really, since society is safe, and we're nice people, we should put him into a mansion (surrounded with a high fence so he can't get out and harm society) with every luxury known to man, and also lots of kiddie porn videos, because really, he can't harm anyone anymore and we might as well let him really enjoy himself because it's hard to be isolated from society! And the porn videos are already made, so they're not harming anyone. And we certainly shouldn't call what he did "wrong" in front of him, because now that he's safely away from society, there's no point in hurting his feelings or anything."

I think if people are honest, they will be RIGHT to be offended by this man's behavior, and they will think anyone that is NOT offended by the behavior has something wrong with them. Our cry, when we hear of a pedophile, is NOT merely "let's save society from him!" - it's also "that's WRONG what he did, and there SHOULD be a consequence!"

So once a person can understand this, then I think it's easy to see that we, as imperfect humans that sin, can RIGHTLY look with abhorrance upon what a pedophile does, yet let lesser sins slide. But an entirely holy and righteous God cannot even let the smallest sin "slide" - it is RIGHTLY an abhorrance to Him, and if it was NOT, then He would NOT be wholly righteous and good.

So now the original question of redemption is in a more proper setting, I think. We can see that God RIGHTLY requires a consequence for sins, because we see and understand this same thing in ourselves, tho at a lesser level.

(so much for one post .... )

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

Wouldn't an act of charity without expectation of eternal reward be more pure?

Elfhelm, that's a great question, IMO, and I'd love to tackle it. PLEASE remind me if I forget - I'd like to finish Nurvi's first And in the meantime, why don't you give it a go yourself?

[Wayfarer]

*interjection*

Originally Posted by Elfhelm

I have always been convinced by Jesus on that topic. Caring for others is the right thing to do.

But I wonder how caring for others is tied to religion. Wouldn't an act of charity without expectation of eternal reward be more pure?

That's actually a good point, Elfhelm, and something which even most Christians tend to miss. Let me take a shot at explaining it:

The concept of Salvation in Christianity isn't the same as the idea of punishment vs/ reward. It's pretty clearly stated that a persons individual goodness doesn't really matter - being a 'good person' or not, isn't what gets you admission to heaven.

In fact, It's quite the opposite. Rather than Salvation being something which can be attained through the doing of Good Works, Good Works are something which a person will be motivated to do as a result of having been given Salvation. Christians should not do good in order to be saved, they do good works because they have already been saved.

On the flip side, someone who's, you know, un-saved, can still do good things - the drive and desire for goodness is universal to all human beings, so everybody tries to do good at some time or another. But doing good will never bring you closer to God (it can never get you salvation).

To try and boil it all down: The common perception seems to be that doing good stuff will bring a person closer to God. Christianity reverses that, saying that being close to God will encourage and enable a person to do (more) Good, and that Goodness is the result, not the cause, of being close to God.

(Disclaimer- this is just a spur of the moment synthesis of the ideas. I'm trying to state Christian philosophy, not my own, so I reserve the right to be wrong, and correct myself at a later time should I realize that I misstated something. )