Muslims

[Rían]

sure, they can complain. I think that killing and torching things goes beyond complaining, though, don't you?

And I repeat - shall democracies let (in this case) Muslims from other countries dictate how they act? What if the Muslims next object to their being churches in Denmark, or being atheists or agnostics in Denmark, and they torch embassies again? Will you say everyone should convert to Islam just so they'll stop torching things?

It's the argument of "I think we better not post cartoons in our free press that might make Muslims in other countries torch our embassies" that I object to.

[Insidious Rex]

Then as usual you have my argument all wrong... You don’t restrain yourself from insulting Muhammad because they have a fit about it… You do it because IT MAKES SENSE when you are trying to have BETTER relationships with these cultures anyway. It MAKES SENSE NOT to antagonize a person or people who feel oppressed or mistreated or antagonized to begin with. You are only making it harder to achieve your original goal. Now does that really make sense to you?

And frankly having a protest march is not an attempt to control anyone. It seems to me it’s a way of saying hey we don’t appreciate that and venting anger. Anger that they would be completely ignored for so long when more civil heads had asked for a dialogue. Anger that they would go ahead and repeat the insult 6 fold across an entire continent despite their original protests. Now, the problem is that extremists ran with this anger and used it to their advantage. And that’s where you see the embassy burnings and the people being shot down (by their OWN governments by the way) because they were throwing stones and such. But how in the world is throwing stones an attempt to control you? It doesn’t effect you at all. Its simple rage. Frustration. Indignation. The product of a perceived act of the highest blasphemy and the crudest insult from people who you have a paranoid bias against anyway because of current events.

Now you can go ahead and smash your head up against the wall simply because you can and you are afraid about setting the precedent that someone is controlling you by telling you that you CANT smash your head against the wall but I think that’s a little different from going to church or from being agnostic. Have some common sense…

[Spock]

the looting, burning, beatings, etc. are only showing how childish they are

still "a little people, ......"

[Insidious Rex]

If you believe they are all so childish then are you saying its ok to purposefully antagonize children? Gosh how juvinile of you...

[Spock]

First, I'd check your spelling

Secondly, their actions are hardly inherent of an evolved civilized societal religion.

so, childish, yes.

[Falagar]

Which might not be that surprising, as there have never been any conditions for their culture to "mature". Our part of the world has undergone tremendous changes the last 200 years, many parts haven't had time to catch up.

Also, Islam is the second-largest religion of the world with over a billion followers, I think we'd have been in bigger troubles if all or even most muslims decided to react as these extremists have done.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Falagar

Our part of the world has undergone tremendous changes the last 200 years, many parts haven't had time to catch up.

your not going to be an apologist on this are you?

Originally Posted by Falagar

Also, Islam is the second-largest religion of the world with over a billion followers,

that doesn't mean much if all they do is follow incitement to riot over a cartoon or anything else they don't like.

Originally Posted by Falagar

I think we'd have been in bigger troubles if all or even most muslims decided to react as these extremists have done.

we are, we just haven't realized it fully.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Spock

First, I'd check your spelling

May want to note how much your undermine your point when you criticize people for minor spelling errors in posts in which you use the word "religon"...

How juvEnile...

Secondly, their actions are hardly inherent of an evolved civilized societal religon.

so, childish, yes.

First off you didnt address my point at all. Antagonizing a child is also childish. Understand?

Secondly, are you really making the argument that our country (or any western country) has never had any form of angry protests or rioting where buildings were damaged? That we are so much above them because this has never occurred? If so you surely lack any conceivable grasp of our history and the history of so many other western countries… Have a look in the mirror before attempting to write off ENTIRE populations of people for being inferior to you because of things we have done ourselves.

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by Spock

your not going to be an apologist on this are you?

*sigh* No. I'm not apologizing for anything (neither should our government, btw). I'm not saying it's ok for muslims to riot, burn and threaten to kill every time they find something about western culture they don't like. I'm trying to find the underlying reasons for why they riot, so that the "problem" can be "fixed". And I don't think the underlying reasons are that muslims are "a small people, greedy, barbarous and cruel".

that doesn't mean much if all they do is follow incitement to riot over a cartoon or anything else they don't like.

How many have rioted? A few thousands? Out of 1,2 billion or so?

we are, we just haven't realized it fully.

We do have troubles. But muslims aren't a single, coherent front who all hate the west.

[Lotesse]

Wow. Congrats to Grey Wolf for creating such a hot new thread! Pretty intense around here.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

May want to note how much your undermine your point when you criticize people for minor spelling errors in posts in which you use the word "religon"...

It's my perverse sense of frivolity....or in Monty Python language; a pun.
I really didn't want to criticize you but couldn't resist the opportunity.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

How juvEnile...

..done in fun....

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

First off you didnt address my point at all. Antagonizing a child is also childish. Understand?

Sorry, I do not agree and yes I do understand.

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

are you really making the argument.......

Yep. We've had our share, but not over cartoons, not then, not now. THAT is my point.

verstehen Sie!

I've got to sign off line now..TTD...take a deep breath.

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Falagar

*sigh* ]

well a few caused your country some misery......how do you want to quantify what is and what is not appropriate?

In this, we disagree on many things, however, your view is appreciated.

[HOBBIT]

Telephone pole controversy started WWI? What are you talking about?? lol.

[Insidious Rex]

Originally Posted by Spock

Yep. We've had our share, but not over cartoons, not then, not now. THAT is my point.

Id make you a bet theres been at least one riot in our history due to or inspired on by an editorial cartoon in a paper somewhere in the US. The draft riots of 1863(?) were inspired by editorial comments and racist caricatures printed in the New York papers of the day. And theres been MUCH lamer reasons to riot countless times in our countries history. I mean just think of what blacks were lynched for all over this country not very long ago. Looking at a white woman? Daring to vote? Daring to set foot in an all white establishment? Even by accident? And we are so much more civilized then those "small" muslim heathens who throw stones at and set fire to buildings in their outrage? Again… check your history…

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Then as usual you have my argument all wrong... You don’t restrain yourself from insulting Muhammad because they have a fit about it… You do it because IT MAKES SENSE when you are trying to have BETTER relationships with these cultures anyway. It MAKES SENSE NOT to antagonize a person or people who feel oppressed or mistreated or antagonized to begin with. You are only making it harder to achieve your original goal. Now does that really make sense to you?

I understand your argument, and that it "makes sense", and my point is that where do governments draw the line, then? If it "makes sense", then should governments ENFORCE good sense by putting limits on the free speech of their own people towards people groups that they're trying to have better relationships with, esp. if some in those people groups tend to be volatile? Do you think that all comics should be required, by the government, to be run past a Muslim Sensibility panel before being published?

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

Wow. Congrats to Grey Wolf for creating such a hot new thread! Pretty intense around here.

Thanks, Lotesse. Even though I only started it.

[inked]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

If Michael Angelo had been a muslim and had painted god in a demeaning way as an insidious monkey like terrorist I guarantee you would have seen heads roll and blood in the streets and that ceiling would have been down in no time. Absolutely no doubt of that. Heresy was an offense punishable by the most brutal of deaths at that point.

Because Christians are the most vile and reprehensible of persons given to torching their local Islamic country embassies when cartoons depicting the slaughter of Jews are printed?

or,

Because you like to think that Islam is other than the way it is acting en masse?

or,

You are discriminating on the basis of past behaviour and generalizing it to the present where it is non-existent?

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

Id make you a bet theres been at least one riot in our history due to or inspired on by an editorial cartoon in a paper somewhere in the US. The draft riots of 1863(?) were inspired by editorial comments and racist caricatures printed in the New York papers of the day. And theres been MUCH lamer reasons to riot countless times in our countries history. I mean just think of what blacks were lynched for all over this country not very long ago. Looking at a white woman? Daring to vote? Daring to set foot in an all white establishment? Even by accident? And we are so much more civilized then those "small" muslim heathens who throw stones at and set fire to buildings in their outrage? Again… check your history…

Funny, but I don't seem to recall any such when Islamic extremists killed thousands at the Twin Towers and Pentagon. Did I miss something?

[Lotesse]

Originally Posted by Insidious Rex

If Michael Angelo had been a muslim and had painted god in a demeaning way as an insidious monkey like terrorist I guarantee you would have seen heads roll and blood in the streets and that ceiling would have been down in no time. Absolutely no doubt of that. Heresy was an offense punishable by the most brutal of deaths at that point.

That's a very good point you made here, Irex. Back in the day, Christian extremists in power were bloodcurdlingly ruthless to heretics, no doubt about that.

[Falagar]

Originally Posted by Spock

well a few caused your country some misery......how do you want to quantify what is and what is not appropriate?

In this, we disagree on many things, however, your view is appreciated.

Of course, no number of rioters are really appropriate, I just don't like lumping all arabs in the same box. Many muslims have condemned the cartoons, but a lot have also condemned the actions (great example here: www.sorrynorwaydenmark.com).

[Spock]

Originally Posted by Falagar

Of course, ....., I just don't like lumping all arabs in the same box.

...watching Lawrence of Arabia, there's a good quote; "arabs, what are these arabs you call, we know no such people". They are tribes and families and not a unified people by any means.

** IR** once again you have held true to your tactic of going on a tangent and not accepting what was stated. I'm not going there to fuel your posts.