10-27-2004, 04:46 AM | #541 | |||||||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Are we becoming a nation of delicate flowers were we remain tramatized for years after such an event? So many nations have been through so much worse. Our own civil war was so much more horrific than anything OBL has come up with. We paid a terrible price for letting our guard down for the sake of convenience to the point where such a pathetic plan actually could succeed. We need to get off the permenent orange alert, stop the fear mongering, and just go about the business of addressing the security problems along with the other problems facing us. And, yes I do think the defencive measures are the higher priority than pre-emptive wars. The steps the president and the government have gone a long way toward preventing similar attacks but are too focused on a repeat event and not proactive towards other posibilities. Kerry is right about securing the ports. Bush, instead of just agreeing and adding to his goals, ignored the issue. To partiasn to see a good point. My neighbor is an FBI agent and he agrees that before 9/11 we, as a nation, were more concerned about car jackings than hijackings. We all bear the resposibility for ignoring the embassy bombings. If I remember the goverment was busy spending millions of dollars finding out where the president's winky had been. The "Wag the Dog" slam dismissed the real threat as a political manuevre. Quote:
Unfortunately while we have the Pakistani leader on our side he is in too precarious a position to do everything needed to clear out his country of Al Qaeda. It would be impossible to track down every terrorist in the world. Like the "War on Drugs" we may eventually realiz it is unwinnable in any final sense and that the best thing to do is address the causes and ameliorate the effects, and recognize that more force often leads to "unexpected consequences". Quote:
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I remember you used to claim to be an independent or sometimes a libertarian. At last the sheep's clothing comes off and reveals the radical neo-con hawk underneath. I'll be you consider RNC flyers to be reference material. Now could we not resort to personalizing political discussions, unless you *want* to just desend into name calling and character asassination. Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-27-2004, 05:19 AM | #542 | ||||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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[quote] You really do twist facts and spew the liberal crap - don't you.{/quote]Charming... you should run for office with your winning ways. Just watch the PBS link I posted which includes an interview with the former Army Chief of Staff and get back to me. Maybe he is lying but he was brought in with the current administration. Do you really deny that and administration officials that publicly disagree with policy suddenly "retire"? Quote:
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It's not a choice of whether to fight terrorism or not, it's about what way will be the most successful. Levelling and rebuilding entire countries just might not be the most effective way to do it. Japan and Germany had long histories of education, government, industry and economic longevity. Iraq and Afganistan have a long history of corruption, depotism, backsliding, and warlordism. Each case is as unique as each individual.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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10-27-2004, 05:31 AM | #543 |
The Blobbit
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Kent, England (Not Oxford! ... yet...)
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Note to self: never mention Ireland.
Erm, I meant that there hadn't been attacks on UK soil by Islamic fundamentalists. Of course we've had terror attacks. A few years ago, for example, a man by the name of Guido Fawles tried to blow up parliament... I can't really talk about Ireland, since most of it happened before I was born...
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Janny's Songs Janny's lyrics and random photographs Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to the small and arrogant oligarchy of those who happen to be walking about. ~ Mercutio... erm, GK Chesterton. |
10-27-2004, 09:22 AM | #544 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
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O, Janny,
Thucydides long ago said, those who do not know history are condemned to repeat it. Please don't take the attitude "that was a long time ago" and ignore its lessons!
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-27-2004, 09:25 AM | #545 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Free, happy, drunk and sincere
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I wouldn't worry about your knowledge of the Troubles. At least your involved, and have grown up with both British and Irish Hostility. Perhaps you and I are better qualified to make claims about such things, as we don't come from the other side of the pond? And before any Yank says they know more than we about Ireland, or knows anything about the loss and the blood, consider this: You lot fire up if we say the damndest little thing about the US and her politics and her history, and you then say to us "how could you know, you wern't born here..." The term I'm looking for....rhymes with wypocrite......
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10-27-2004, 09:29 AM | #546 |
Elven Warrior
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Location: Free, happy, drunk and sincere
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Though I do find it funny that Eire is the discussion in a debate about a US election.
Unless, through either candidate winning, the price of imported beer to our own homes rises, that is. Note how no one imports US beer anyway? Australians laugh at the US beers, and call them "light". And my compatriots don't even waste their time on it. And speaking of wasting time, perhaps one of you fine Americans should bring us back to topic, eh?
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10-27-2004, 09:53 AM | #547 |
Elf Lord
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Okay! But you do pay attention to history, I note.
Given that post WWII and the subsequent dismantling of the British Empire and forced relinquishment of the role of Global PolicePerson, GB did manage to establish the nation of Israel as an act of compassion, what responsibility do the succeeding governments and generations have to that policy? Having neglected Hitler through the '30's and suffered the aggression that Chamberlain's appeasement policy resulted in, do you have any thoughts for either political candidate here in the USA? What benefit of those historical realities would you suggest either candidate should use?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-27-2004, 02:36 PM | #548 |
Quasi Evil
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maryland, US
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wow you east coast boys were up awful early. coffee fueled passion is always fun.
so what do people think of this whole colorado thing? they want to have an amendment that would allow the electoral votes for the state to be divided according to the percentage of vote. so instead of all 9 votes going to the winner and 0 votes going to the loser (even if its 51% to 49%) it may be 5 republican and 4 democratic. as is to be expected, the republicans are up in arms over this since it essentially takes away 4 of their votes even though they may just barely win the state. if that had happend in 2000, Gore would have won the election. But others argue that its not fair to disinfranchise completely half (or more!) of the electorate (err.. of those that actually vote) by having it be an all or nothing system. if you barely squeek out a huge state why should you be allowed to eat 100% of the winnings? so if this amendment passes in Colorado it could have quite an interesting effect on the election. although i have been told there already is a system similar to this in both Maine and Iowa currently. although its not as radical as the one proposed for Colorado (it has to do with districts or something).
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 10-27-2004 at 02:39 PM. |
10-27-2004, 02:37 PM | #549 | |||
Elven Warrior
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The question is the individual approach. No planes slamming into Westminster, and alike. And as, most dear Yanks will note, GB is responsible for more that the dear innocent Americans are, so one onders why the Brits are not besieged.... Oh but of course, the US is apparently pivitol to "the west" (snigger), and should the US "fall", of course, so should the rest of us follow... and so on. Am I alone in noting that there is no rash of car bombing's and terrorist killings in Basra, a city occupied by U.K. forces, the second largest city in Iraq? Gee, did the Brits just get lucky, and bag a peaceful city, or what.... OR perhaps, the UK forces have run the shop a little differently? Quote:
One wonders if Iraq an Kuwait didn't have oil in abundance, would the US be so interested? And apparently the US campaign revolves around Iraq. And Iraq is, in many and many political ways, Viet Nam without the jungle.
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10-27-2004, 02:53 PM | #550 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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I love how the media is now explaining what will happen if the vote is tied for president and claiming how people will be outraged when they find out how that was set up. It shouldn't be of any surprise to people if they would read the damn Constition and if schools actually taught it.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-27-2004, 03:12 PM | #551 |
Advocatus Diaboli
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personally... i'd rather lose the electoral college altogether... and i do understand the system
i'd rather see the candidates cater to the people of the US as a whole, not just to regions
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
10-27-2004, 03:24 PM | #552 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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10-27-2004, 03:27 PM | #553 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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10-27-2004, 03:30 PM | #554 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Right now it's a possibilty that Hawaii may be a swing state - if it wasn't for the electoral college - you wouldn't hear anything about Hawaii at all. But right now - they are 50/50 and have always voted democrat. The election can very well hinge on Hawaii with only 4 electoral votes.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 10-27-2004 at 03:33 PM. |
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10-27-2004, 03:40 PM | #555 |
Quasi Evil
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the same could be said if it went 3-1. I dont see the distinction. are you saying hawaii wouldnt matter once california and new york hash it out? id like to see how often hawaii mattered in the past century of elections even in this system frankly. and has anyone done a break down on how close the election would have been last time if we did it all by percentages within states? that would be interesting to look at.
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
10-27-2004, 04:14 PM | #556 |
Elf Lord
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Fenir,
We did our spot to get the thread back on, but look where it's gone! by the bye, do you think there is a connection between "ire" and "ireland", given that you weren't puttin' on or so? Given the temperment of Irish folk (legendary, even), I've always thought the E in Eire was a way to avoid the obvious I ! Would either candidate be a pro-Ireland pick?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
10-28-2004, 04:56 AM | #557 | ||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
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As an outsider, it seems that people identify more with the USA as a whole than with their state; if that's so, maybe they'd be better voting directly for the president. Quote:
I hope all potential Bush-voters will note that they are endorsing a hidden agenda, the Project for a New American Century, which they and their children will pay for. |
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10-28-2004, 05:13 AM | #558 | |
The Dude
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Ill heal your wounds, ill set you free, |
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10-28-2004, 05:55 AM | #559 |
Elf Lord
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And Anheuser-Busch has the temerity to attack Budweiser Budvar over the use of the name Budweiser. I say temerity because the Czech version is one of the world's great beers, while Anheuser-Busch is responsible for some of the worst tasting beer available on the planet.
Is this election thing over yet by the way? Drags on a bit, doesn't it?
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I'm beset by self-doubt ....or am I? |
10-28-2004, 06:45 AM | #560 |
im quite stupid
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As with all elections its come down to black and white issue of just who do you like more. Now Bush has one good thing going for him and in america it appears to be held a virtue amd that is is certinally is strong willed. Hes shown this through his term in office he decideds what hes going to do and he does its no matter what any other country might think or what the long term conaquences are theres another man who is famos for doing what he though and without thinking of the conquences and thats Turin (ok so he might be fictional but whatever)
As for Kerry he seems a bit more level headed so hes got my vote (shame i aint allowed eh?) i have not been impressed with bush i dont think hes stupid as hes made out hes clever he plays on peoples fears. But what i would say to the American people is if 9/11 had not happened would you be re electing Bush on the strength of his domestic policy? has the state of the economy got better? Has welfare got better? Are more people in jobs? are more people getting the health care they need? Or is he too busy protecting his country (and that debatiable) to worry about such trival matters? And is your country more safe? Have you made any new friends (our government may like you but our people dont like you as much) have you managed to make terrorists think oh i dont want to hurt America anymore or have you made them more determined? The American people have a huge responablity to the world the person they elect is not just the most powerfull person in there country but in the whole world your choice effects all of us. Please pick the right person
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