05-19-2006, 04:17 PM | #541 | |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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05-19-2006, 04:19 PM | #542 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,773
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Lord knows, but I'm currently looking for a job.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
05-19-2006, 04:35 PM | #543 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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Best of luck. Can you get grants and stuff if you choose to go to college?
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
05-19-2006, 04:41 PM | #544 |
The Black Númenórean
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,773
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Nah, for reasons best saved for pm. I'm just so tired. And sick at the moment. Had been fighting it off but its attacked me.
I am amazed at how fast my parents turned on me cause of this.
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Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, And though they are with you yet they belong not to you. You may give them your love but not your thoughts, For they have their own thoughts. You may house their bodies but not their souls, For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams. |
05-19-2006, 07:36 PM | #545 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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That's awful, Shah. I'm so sorry to hear that. It's an abomination that things like this happen. You have my utmost sympathies, and best wishes for creating a better life.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
05-20-2006, 01:31 AM | #546 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 8,397
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Best of luck Shah! I'm sorry you were hurt by your parents' actions and I hope you get through it all okay. Your friends at the Moot are always here for you.
Good luck with job hunting as well.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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05-20-2006, 11:18 AM | #547 | |
Elven Warrior
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 301
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If you believe homosexuality is sinful, what can you say that you don't say to someone who tells you that he can't remain chaste, or sober, or honest? |
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05-20-2006, 03:26 PM | #548 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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I'm with you Greymouser - i think Gwaimir Windgem should clarify just what he means by the 'abomination' stuff - it appears at best an odd choice of words - and is very open to intepretation - if it is supportive of Shah then let's just be clear about it!
if it is effectively calling her an abomination for her preferences at a very hard time for her - well, i can only say that my respect for you is lessened by it... Please be clear what you mean Gwai! BB |
05-20-2006, 03:47 PM | #549 |
the Shrike
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: San Francisco, CA <3
Posts: 10,647
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I'm assuming he's talkin' about the parents kicking her out, and by better life, I'm hoping he means that she'll find her feet and get that job she's looking for, and get the parents to come back around.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
05-20-2006, 03:58 PM | #550 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Butterbeer, I must say that I am gravely offended by the implications of your post; I would hope that people don't think I am a total and complete monster, but I guess that is a vain hope. I am, after all, a Christian, and I suppose they don't come in any other variety. I did NOT mean to say that Shah is an abomination; to say that would be itself abominable, vicious, and cruel. The wickedness of such a statement would be only aggravated by the terrible state of affairs. I meant that it is terrible and abominable when parents treat their children like this and act hatefully to them because of their homosexuality. If it weren't too much to ask, I would ask that you give me the slightest modicum of credit in the future, and not twist my words to mean the most awful thing possible. Just because I disagree with you does not necessitate that I am a cruel and monstrous creature.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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05-20-2006, 04:46 PM | #551 |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
Join Date: May 2005
Location: ghost
Posts: 1,792
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(Shah- I know not what to say. Do you need assistance? Anything I can do, you know...)
So, I have not been on the board for quite a while and have some serious catching up to do. I believe Nerdanel made a point near the bottom of page 27 to the effect that we have not really made the distinction between love in the same gender and lust. My question to you, Gwaimir, is "Do you support loving same-gender relationships built on trust and security if there is absolutly no sex involved?" I know the Church looks down upon any form of sex if it happens outside of wedlock, but can anyone enter into a loving, caring relationship without sex and be approved of by the Church? (Not that I'm saying you are the rule maker here, just that you seem to have the most knowledge and most passionate arguments.) |
05-22-2006, 01:17 AM | #552 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
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I'm sorry but I just don't understand your comment - could you please elaborate? I read a lot of Nel's link, where there are sincere people trying to get society to accept their opinion, and I read your link, and murder is a terrible thing.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-22-2006, 03:45 AM | #553 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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The assertion was that denial of equal rights does not constitute "harm".
My argument is that denial of equal rights contributes towards the establishment and validation of homophobic attitudes. |
05-22-2006, 05:15 AM | #554 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: here and there
Posts: 3,514
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Gwai - no need to be offended.
I merely asked you to clarify what you meant because it could indeed be read in two ways - and for your own benefit i thought it best you clarify it. Thankyou for doing so. and as you yourself ask in your post there, please don't try and second guess my thoughts or opinions either! ..i don't think i have really stated any? Nice image on the vulture thing there! ... i don't thiunk anyone would have actually thought that ...but the image is in my head now!!! *imagines gwai perched high on the debating eyries of the Moot* ( but i am sure you are a nice vulture!! ) Just kidding , best, BB |
05-22-2006, 06:15 PM | #555 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Re homophobic - I"m guessing we might differ on the definition of this very oddly-used term. It seems that it some people use it to include even people like me, who have no problem at ALL with homosexuals, but just happen to hold the opinion that homosexual acts are wrong. Personally, I think applying that term to me is the height of ridiculousness, but some people will do anything to push their agenda. Hopefully you don't include me in your opinion of who is homophobic. I challenge anyone to find anywhere, in my hundreds if not thousands of posts, where I've treated homo/bi/trans people differently than any one else here. I don't do that, because I don't feel that they're any different. End of story. Second thing - "denial of equal rights" - well, IMO homosexuals have been trying to get special rights, not equal rights. Marriage is a matter of definition by society. Some societies allow polygamy. The U.S. doesn't. Neither do we allow same-sex marriage. Why should gays have special rights over, say, polygamists or advocates of youth-adult marriage? Marriage, in the US, has always been between one man and one woman. Just because something has "always been" that way does not NECESSARILY mean that it's right to change it. Murder, for example, has always been wrong here; change, in this case, is not right, IMO. And I feel that marriage falls into that same category. Where the equal rights come into play is that ANYONE can try to change the definition of marriage. And gays are doing just that, and no one is stopping them - they have the right and freedom to try to impose their opinion on society. As far as the main point of your question, which seems to be: are horrific crimes like the one you linked to directly due to the fact that homosexual marriage is not currently allowed? I really don't know; see, polygamists are in the same boat as homosexuals in the US (i.e., polygamous marriages are not allowed, even if the people are sincerely in love) and I don't see crimes like that against polygamists, although there seems to be a general distaste for polygamy. I think that there are people who will do terrible things all over the place, and I don't know that legalizing same-sex marriage will stop that. It might a bit, but I don't think that's a good reason to legalize same-sex marriage. One could use the same logic and say that perhaps legalizing pedophilia might lessen the violence that pedophiles are usually subjected to in prison. (NOTE - I'm not saying homosexuals are the same as pedophiles - please don't trot out that tired lie again. Not you, Gaffer, but others who like to do that. What I'm pointing out is that the LOGIC is the same.) I hate violence against anyone This world is truly awful sometimes.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-22-2006 at 06:16 PM. |
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05-22-2006, 07:09 PM | #556 |
Entmoot's Drunken Uncle
Join Date: May 2005
Location: ghost
Posts: 1,792
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Neat, Rian.
Of course, heterosexual marriages can be a lot worse that homosexual life-partnerships. Many marriages are abusive and love is absent, but still some states won't grant a divorce on those grounds. We should talk about heterosexual rights being squashed because they are. There are people, politicians even, who want to ban all forms of birth control even to married couples therebye destroying a couples control over how many children they have. Now THAT is scary. |
05-22-2006, 07:36 PM | #557 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Yes, I think non-abortive birth control is a very good thing!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-22-2006, 08:20 PM | #558 | |||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Butterbeer: I suppose I didn't need to get so upset with you; according to your join date, you weren't around back when I was, so you wouldn't know me very well. Let's just say that, while I consider homosexual acts to be wrong, I am very sympathetic to homosexuals, and would never dream of calling them "abominations", and to suggest that I would do such a cruel thing at such a sensitive time is very offensive to me. However, you are right that I shouldn't have gotten quite so offended, and I apologise for that. I'll try to be a nice vulture for your sake, BB! *peers over the 'mootish deserts* Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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05-23-2006, 04:21 AM | #559 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Just to make clear: I don't think that you or Gwai are homophobic. Your posts show that both of you are thoughtful and willing to engage with potential contradictions posed by your faith.
Also to propose a deal: I won't point the finger over the paedo analogy if you don't make it, nor the polygamy one. Gay people are just born that way; polygamists are just greedy. I don't need to tell you that arguments by analogy may seem to work because they have the same logical structure but that has no bearing on whether or not they're true. I also agree that things shouldn't be changed just for the sake of it. However, I don't think they should be kept the same just for the sake of it either. Again, that's a non-argument IMO. Clearly, prohibiting gay marriage is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for homophobia. But don't you agree that it might facilitate homophobia by legitimising the idea that gays are outwith (sorry - Scots word for which there is no English equivalent) the bounds of acceptable society? Do you agree that allowing gays equal rights might, in the long term, result in a reduction in the prevalence of those ideas? And an ancillary question: if we don't allow gay marriage, what do you think SHOULD be done to eliminate homophobia? |
05-23-2006, 10:37 AM | #560 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: sikeston, MO, usa, earth, sol
Posts: 3,114
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Well, just be assured that lawyers aren't homophobic...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.../ixuknews.html A whole new venue for money-making is now opening...........
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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