11-23-2008, 07:38 PM | #541 | ||
Deus Ex Machina
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I mean it as an equalizing term; acknowledgment that each of these belief systems informs or did inform somebody's way of life and that for the purposes of this discussion, no one system will be assumed to be better than the others.
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One of the interesting things about Greek pantheism is that it was cult based. So in addition to the Olympian gods, there were the local cults worshipping lesser, nature gods and in the later Dark age and Classical periods, heroes as well; and on top of that, the Olympian gods were often localized in some way as well. Historically speaking, there is no one Greek religion, there's a common set of deities worshipped via similar practices but worshipped in different combinations, for different reasons, in different places. Now there is evidence that Hesiod's father came from a settlement along the western coast of Anatolia, and that he may have had contact with Phonecians due to trading. It is possible that Hesiod's account of Typhoeus was influenced by his family's Near East connection which would explain the parallels with the Levantine religions, but would also mean that we can't generalize it as a common feature of the Grecian belief system.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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11-23-2008, 08:12 PM | #542 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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There is also an hypothesis that the serpent and the dragon became associated with the devil, because they featured in other temporary religions. So it would make sense for the jews to distance themselves by making those symbols on equal footing with their symbol of evil. In that aspect, Satan is sort of a derivative of already existing mythological figures. However, the combination of characteristics in Satan is relatively unique to christianity. Quote:
Excuse me!? Changing other people's myths to fit your religion is good? Virtuous!? Sacrilege, I say! Adapting ancient myths to include christian themes is like tearing the acropolis down to put a gothic building on its foundations. Oh, the gothic building may look equally pretty and useful, and may be of historical value in its own right, but the ancient one is lost forever, and a irreparable loss for mankind it is too. Imperfect? Erronous? Really, now Lief! How does that fit with your desire for historical accuracy? It doesn't add up. There should be no judgement on the contents when one strifes for historical accurary. The original elements should be preserved just as well, not changed to fit local or temporary customs. Changing them would mean losing valuable information. Nor, I might add, is it very tolerant of other people's beliefs... Sorry, but one just does not 'amend' other culture's myths. It's a lesser evil than just burn them, but... *twitch*... just don't, okay?
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11-23-2008, 08:13 PM | #543 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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But I agree with you that other material goods were much more common than human beings, and that humans were generally only offered in times of great distress. I found that in my research on the Carthaginians, so I know it was true of them. The fact that offerings of food were made to the gods also suggests a belief in their literal reality. If the gods were seen as metaphorical, they wouldn't require gifts. Except possibly to improve people's status in the community, but this was not the perspective with which people often offered up goods to the gods. Usually, they're described as giving gifts to the gods to get back blessings or answers to prayers (such as safety for a ship about to set sail on a trading venture). Quote:
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I don't know anything about Hesiod's father, and so cannot discuss him intelligently.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2008 at 08:15 PM. |
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11-23-2008, 08:28 PM | #544 | |
The one true King of the human race, direct descendant of Adam and heir to the kings of old. "You owe me your fealty." The Tar Minyaturion
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Eccle. (Apoc) 27:9 The birds will resort unto their like; so will truth return unto them that practise in her. 2+2=4, is this not the truth or is it a lie. Math does not and cannot contradict itself, if you remember that when you try to understand the bible, you will unlock a great many truths/amath hidden there in. One example: 2 Peter 3 8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. God made man on the 5th day. Was that the 5th day or was it 5000 years. The scriptures say that the the second coming will be on the third day. Was it the third day or was it 3000 years. Jesus died over 2000 years ago. If the 1st day/1st 1000 years started the day after he died and the second day/2000 years started on the 1001st year, the 3rd day or 3000th year started in 2001 give or take a couple years since the Gregorian calendar is not 100% accurate. Right now it's 2008 going on to 2009, we are definately in the third day: Matthew 24:3-34 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. 8 All these are the beginning of sorrows... ...32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. So are we not seeing wars and rumors of wars, earth quakes, tsunamies, droughts etc. and we all know that there are more things to come, it's not going to get better. So this is the generation that will not pass away before these things/the end of the world will happen. This is the third day, it will all happen anytime now, next month, next year, in the next 2 years...soon, the kingdom comes.
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Proverbs 21:3 To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice. Ecclesiasticus 2:1-5 1 My son, if thou come to serve the Lord, prepare thy soul for temptation... ...4 Whatsoever is brought upon thee take cheerfully, and be patient when thou art changed to a low estate. 5 For gold is tried in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of adversity. Romans 5:3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience; |
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11-23-2008, 09:20 PM | #545 | ||||
Elf Lord
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Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Typhon gives birth to a host of monsters that kill the Greek people (in the myth) until heroes save them. Those monsters would definitely have been seen in a negative light, and the heroes' actions praised. Chaos gives birth to monsters, and in godly order are the deities that the people see fit to worship. And what do you have when you have chaos? The existence of chaos is the existence of lawlessness. They are one and the same thing. That is a parallel between the scriptural Satan and the "dragons" described in these other religions. Chaos is presented in a negative light in the Greek religion, as something that must be overcome. I don't know how much it was seen in a negative light in other religions of the time, such as the Sumerian, for I don't yet have that information, but even at that time it was clearly an opposing force to order and the gods. Quote:
I disagree with your proposition that the devil figure was seen, either by the Jews or by the ancient Eastern cultures, as only a "symbol." See mine and Willow Oran's most recent posts, for evidence supporting this. I also think the evidence is strong that the "chaos" of Typhon and other such entities was often seen in a negative light. That doesn't mean they saw it as "pure evil," but certainly as an "opposing force," and probably even (in the case of Typhon) an enemy of mankind. Chaos is also strongly associated with Satan and is deeply ingrained in his evil, in Christian thought (he rules "lawlessness"). Quote:
All these beliefs are clearly connected figures in religious thought, who strongly parallel one another, though with important differences. Quote:
But what I was actually trying to say in the post you're responding to is that it's a good thing to affirm what one agrees with in other religions, and build on those connections. That's a useful tool for helping people into conversion (which I see as good), and other people's cultures can teach us valuable lessons too. Connecting other people's religious figures with our own and showing the parallels, and cutting away the errors in people's thought through conversion and cultural adjustment is beneficial . . . You know what, whatever . I know your Enlightenment mindset isn't going to allow us unity on these matters, so I don't think there's much point in bothering .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2008 at 09:34 PM. |
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11-23-2008, 09:49 PM | #546 | |||
Deus Ex Machina
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Typhon did indeed father a host of monsters on his mate, Echidna, and Zeus chose to allow those monsters to live as challenges to future heroes. Typhoeus is the monsterous Titan who challenged Zeus (at least partly at the behest of his mother Earth, who was angry that Zeus had thrown her other sons into Tartarus) and was defeated. Granted, they are both big and ugly and in opposition to the Olympian gods, but please, two different beings. Quote:
However, I don't think either was actually seen as an enemy of mankind. There's no direct contact through which such enmity would occur. The effects of those beings on the world are troublesome to Men, and the idea of them is frightening, but the actual beings are safely stowed in Tartarus by the time Men show up in the myths and unlike Satan, there's no indication that they rule Tartarus or that they can get out to make trouble for humans. Quote:
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi Last edited by Willow Oran : 11-23-2008 at 09:57 PM. |
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11-23-2008, 10:27 PM | #547 | |||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2008 at 10:28 PM. |
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11-23-2008, 11:22 PM | #548 | |
Deus Ex Machina
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,951
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That reference to pride is Plato's, rather than Hesiod's, and while it is only possible that Hesiod may have been exposed to stories of Near Eastern religions, it is almost certain that Plato would have. However, it is doubtful that Plato would have borrowed the idea, since, being a citizen of Athens during its rise, he likely would have considered his native beliefs the Truth (if anything, he was a philosopher), and anything to do with the Old Testament at most an interesting belief of those weird monotheists across the sea. That reference to pride comes in the context of a decision to argue in favor of Love, for fear of offending the gods. This is important. Pride in a purely human context was generally not bad in ancient Greece. You wanted to be proud of your household and your own deeds, it was good to be the best. Pride in dealings with the gods on the other hand was bad, because it usually led to (often deadly) retribution from the gods. That shows up as a theme in a number of myths; Perseus and Andromeda being the first to mind.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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11-24-2008, 12:03 AM | #549 | |
Elf Lord
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And I noted my opinion can be documented back to Origen, recall. And I said I wouldn't get forced into someone else's corner to suit their argument. I haven't written about "weakening the nations". I have written more than the 'Moot can bear about some of the other items you mention but not in the arguments you cite (unless my neurons are like, glazed over with prions or such). If you can refute these statements by showing me a post where I said the alleged sayings, I'll eat a sheet of paper with salt in penance for faulty memory. Otherwise, you might want to get after whomever. I'll warn 'em if you can find 'em.
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
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11-24-2008, 12:42 AM | #550 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Inked, Sis's original post about the 7 days was criticizing me, not you. I didn't bother to respond as I didn't think it would serve any purpose.
Willow Oran, thanks for the information . It is very interesting. I enjoy talking about these ancient religions with you; you know a good deal more than I do on these and contribute a lot to my understanding. I'll keep in mind what you've said about Hesiod and Plato. I definitely appreciate your comments very much. BTW, something I'm curious about is why did you choose the username you did? I think I'll need to leave this thread for a while, just about immediately . . . I've been on it all day today, and I've got several free or almost completely free days ahead, in which I have plans to write some of a book I'm writing. I'm afraid this discussion will keep me hooked, so I think I should cut free completely. I may respond to Nurv a little more, but I think I really should leave if I'm going to have much else on my mind and on paper in the upcoming hours and days. Thanks for some excellent discussion, friends .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-24-2008, 01:11 AM | #551 |
Deus Ex Machina
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,951
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To satisfy your curiosity: Willow is the name of an original character of mine, when I joined that name was already taken, so I added Oran as a surname of sorts.
I also should be attending to homework. I have a fiction piece to revise, a folklore final to study for and a final paper to write for my Bronze Age Greece class. Most awesome essay prompt ever: It's a thought experiment taking Hesiod and essentially sending him back in time to the Mycenaean age as an exploration of his claim that he would rather have been born in any time but his own. Best of luck with the writing.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
11-24-2008, 01:36 AM | #552 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
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Close, but not quite. It's from Greek Mathema, meaning science (which, in ancient Greek ideas, was the term used for true knowledge).
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-24-2008, 03:27 AM | #553 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-24-2008, 03:29 AM | #554 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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I'm going to bow out for a while, but remind me to reply (eventually) to this post Lief. Also, if I said anywhere that Jesus's sacrifice wasn't for everybody, I apologize, because I don't actually believe that.
I do think that Jesus gave His life for all people. But I am much too busy to debate right now.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 11-24-2008 at 03:46 AM. |
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11-24-2008, 03:36 AM | #555 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
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Sounds good- Willow and I are signing off for a while too.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
11-24-2008, 11:05 AM | #556 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Oh, pull the other one, Inked.
Chided? I was "chided" by you for criticising Lief's quote by you posting in support of ElTel. Go look. So I told you to go back and read more carefully, and THEN I explained, in more depth, my objection to LIEF's "billions of years before humans were created" business. Not yours. I know you straddle the abyss on this one.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
11-24-2008, 07:39 PM | #557 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Gee, SACA, you did the transition so smoothly that I missed you were chiding Lief.
Which other one should I pull
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-28-2008, 05:08 PM | #558 |
Elven Maiden
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,309
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So, remember that paper I was writing on the appeal and danger of mysticism? I finally got around to writing it today, and I'm just finishing it up, so if anyone wants to read it I'll PM it to you or something. I know Inked said you wanted to read it, right? It's not the best paper ever, but it might be interesting. If anyone can point out any factual errors (or grammar, for that matter) by Monday when I turn it in, that would be good too.
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11-28-2008, 10:22 PM | #559 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
Super Moderator Join Date: Aug 2002
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I would love to read it. I can PM you my email address if you want.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-28-2008, 11:21 PM | #560 |
Elven Maiden
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 3,309
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Ok. I think I have a couple of your email addresses but I'm not sure which one you use now.
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