Homosexual marriage

[Rían]

I'm not quite sure I understand you, Jonathan - you want someone who thinks marriage should be between one man and one woman to explain why people should NOT marry animals, in their opinion? Well, the easy answer is that animals aren't men or women. I'm not quite sure I'm understanding you ...

Originally Posted by Butterbeer

again - either you are honest and serious about this dear Ri, or you are not being serious and more importanly not being honest about this.

which is it?

I'm being dead serious about this, BB. Dead serious. But I think you misunderstood my post - I wasn't claiming that I thought it was right (I would be dishonest if I said that!) I was challenging those who think gay marriage is right to explain why THEY think animal/human marriage is wrong. Do you see what I mean?

before God almighty here and now, you and Inked wish to swear to me that and all the mooters here that you advocate legally and morally humans having sexual relations with animals?

No, I don't think that's right.

What I'm doing is challenging people who say that forms of marriage outside of one man/one woman are just fine to tell me why animal/human marriage should be denied to a sincere animal lover. I don't see any logical reason that THEY could give - seriously. I know a logical reason that I could give, but I sincerely don't see a logical reason that THEY could give.

If not - then again out of respect for all the mooters here, please do not bait other mooters who in all fairness made a valid point without any personal rancour on this occasion to anyone else.

I'm not baiting. I'm sincerely asking - and I'm dead serious - what reason people have to deny a really sincere animal lover the right to express their sexuality and love the way they want to. The arguments I see from the people who want to make gay marriage legal where they live (if it's not already) boil down to this: if a person sincerely loves another person, they should be able to marry; a person shouldn't deny their sexuality; marriage isn't all about sex, anyway, it's about love. So given those things, why deny a sincere - and I'm talking SINCERE - animal lover the right to marry their beloved animal?

IRex mentioned 2 things - legal consent and animal abuse. The animal abuse thing is easy to answer - you guys say over and over that it's not all about sex, and get our dirty minds out of other people's bedrooms, etc. Well, then, I tell you to take your own words seriously. A person that sincerely loved their cat wouldn't hurt them - they'd find ways to work with their sexuality, and why in the world do you even want to stick your nose in their bedrooms? That's what you tell me a lot. And a marriage isn't all about sex, either, as you tell me so often.

Legal consent - so change the laws, just like you're trying to change laws about who can marry. It's pretty obvious if an animal likes its owner or not. Make some rules about how to determine this legally, and stop denying sincere animal lovers their sincere wish to marry their animals.

What's up with you guys? Seriously!!! I'm dead serious. What do you guys have against beastiality? Isn't it just a cultural thing, if there's no absolute truths? Personally, I think it's very wrong, but what do you guys who say that there's no absolute truth have against it LOGICALLY? I don't think you have ANY logical reason; do you?

You know, if the people that are for gay marriage just said, simply and sincerely, "I think gay marriage is a good thing, although I really have no logical reason for limiting marriage expansion to just gay marriage" then I'd have no trouble with your statements. I'd explain why I disagree, and we could discuss it for as long as we want to. It's when the gay marriage side tries to claim moral and logical high ground that doesn't exist that it bugs me.

People - if there's no absolute right and wrong, how can gay marriage be right? If morals are determined by culture, would you seriously have no problem if our culture determined that animal/person marriages are just fine? Would you say, "Well, since our culture now says they're fine, then they're just fine with me, since I don't have to marry an animal personally"? I hear that argument used against me a lot; what do you think of it when I apply it to you guys? Is it suddenly invalid?

I also hear about human snobbery a lot over on evolution threads - how it's really conceited to think we're somehow different than other animals. Well, then, don't be snobs and deny animal/human marriage to those who want it! Be consistent! I don't think it's right, and I've explained why, but if you're going to use an argument one place, then you'd better be darn sure you don't object to someone using that same argument against YOU! Does the logicality suddenly evaporate if it's used AGAINST you instead of BY you? Of course not!

Do to others as you would have them do onto you.

I personally am a big beleiver in this.

So am I.

[The Gaffer]

Whether morals are determined by culture, by a complex interplay of personal choice and social engagement, by God or by an intergalactic star goat has no bearing on whether things are right or wrong or not. Another straw man argument frequently cited by the right.

I think the issue of consent has been raised many times. Only people who can give consent can marry. Logical, no?

Edit:

But what bugs me about this sort of argument is how you seem to be implying that it is just as much of a moral or logical leap to go from "one man, one woman" marriage to "one man, one dog" marriage as it is to "one man, one man" marriage.

Anyone who can't see that is a specious argument is one of the following:

1) an idiot
2) playing with semantics to try to cloud the issue
3) thinks homosexuals are no different from animals
4) lying

I know you are not 1. You claim that 3 and 4 aren't true. Given that that leaves 2, perhaps you can see why people like BB and myself have a problem with the honesty behind that line of questioning.

And yes, I'm a speciesist. I eat animals, I wear them and I am glad that there are dedicated scientists performing experiments on them so that I and my children can have better health care.

However, as long as there is no cruelty or suffering involved, I don't care if some perv wants to shag his or her dog/goat/turnip.

[Farimir Captain of Gondor]

I agree with BB. Inked and Rian, come on. What are we 7? "If you love it so much why don't you marry it." Give me a break. Like IRex said, animals can't give concent. No matter what you believe, your dog doesn't love you. They show affection and gratitude because you feed them. You're the 'alpha male' so to speak. It's a survival tactic not a cognitive thought.

On to marriage. It's stupid IMO. Why do you need a piece of paper to tell you you love someone? Penguins mate for life and they don't have another penguin perform a ceremony do they? The only thing marriage is good for, IMO, is a tax break. So, if two people live together, love one another, and want a tax break, who am I to say a man and a man or a woman and a woman can't have the same break as the rest of us? As for the people who say there isn't homosexuality in nature,

9. SEAGULLS
Lesbian mating is practised by between 8% and 14% of the seagulls on the Santa Barbara islands, off the California coast. Lesbian gulls go through all the motions of mating, and they lay sterile eggs. Homosexual behaviour is also known in geese, ostriches, cichlid fish, squid, rats and monkeys.

Source

P.S. If homosexual marriage is against religious beliefs and that's what the big deal is; the government clearly has a law that seperates church and state.

[The Gaffer]

Originally Posted by Farimir Captain of Gondor

Why do you need a piece of paper to tell you you love someone?

It's a great excuse for a party.

[GreyMouser]

Originally Posted by frodosampippinmerry

Name them, and I better be able to verify it. The proof of your statement's burden is on you.

Me and my wife

[GreyMouser]

Using stats from 2002, there were 28,327,000 married couples in the US. Of that number 72.9% were using contraception, for a total of 20,650,000.
http://images.ibsys.com/2005/0104/4047555.pdf

The Pew report finds that 43% of all married couples are "very happy" , another 42% are "quite happy"
So 79.2% of all married couples use contraception; 85% are quite or very happy. If all the married couples who don't use contraception are happy, and all the couples who are unhappy do use contraception, (totally unlikely as that is) that still gives us a minimum of 67% of all married couples who use contraception and are happy

67% x 28 million= at least 18 million out of 28m married couples in the US who use contraception and are happy.

Not wishing to get personal, but I have to wonder if your attitude to this may be more a reflection of events in your own life than any general social trend?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

It's a great excuse for a party.

Also, marriage gives benefits that a couple does not enjoy. If one person was in a serious accident, only the spouse (or family) would be able to say if the patient should be kept on life-support (if this was not already legally specified).

Also I believe their are tax benefits as well, if you're Canadian, and one spouse makes significantly more than the other. (They exist because the government wants to encourage people to take care of each other.)

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

However, as long as there is no cruelty or suffering involved, I don't care if some perv wants to shag his or her dog/goat/turnip.

There is no suffering involved if someone wants to shag their turnip because a turnip does not have a brain, so it cannot feel pain.

However, dogs and goats do feel pain, and because they are unable to give consent to sex, having sex with them is wrong. If consent is not given for sex, then it is rape, and rape is never, ever acceptbale.

That is why the whole "well, why can't a person and an animal get married?" argument does not apply to a debate about gay marriage.

[GreyMouser]

Exactly- can you enter into a legally binding property contract with a dog? with a minor?

Can you enter into an employment contract with a turtle? with a baby?

Which part of "consenting adult" do you have difficulty with?

[Rían]

GreyMouser - The part I have difficulty with is that you guys are treating the "consenting adult" thing as an absolute truth, when I hear over and over from most of you that there are no absolute truths.

Originally Posted by Farimir

As for the people who say there isn't homosexuality in nature ...

I think that whole argument falls on its face when I point out that in nature, some mothers eat their babies. Does that make it right for me to do that, then, since it's in nature?

Originally Posted by Farimir

P.S. If homosexual marriage is against religious beliefs and that's what the big deal is; the government clearly has a law that seperates church and state.

No it doesn't, at least not in the US. Not a law. And it isn't in the Constitution, either.

Come on, guys, 'fess up - you think there are absolute rights and wrongs, right?

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

GreyMouser - The part I have difficulty with is that you guys are treating the "consenting adult" thing as an absolute truth, when I hear over and over from most of you that there are no absolute truths.

A consenting adult is a legal term that I don't think anyone here has a problem with. Therefore, it doesn't matter if this is an absolute truth or not. The point is, legally, two adult men or women can consent to sex (or marriage) and an animal cannot legally consent to sex (or marriage).

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

I think that whole argument falls on its face when I point out that in nature, some mothers eat their babies. Does that make it right for me to do that, then, since it's in nature?

The point of this argument is not to say "... and therefore it's okay," the point is simply that homosexuality exists in nature. Nothing is to be inferred from that, except that homosexuality is natural. I also (not because of, but in addition to) think that homosexuality is fine. You, in turn, feel that it's harmful despite its being natural.

Some people (not in this thread, I don't think) claim that homosexuality is unnatural and pointing out that animals can be gay to is to debunk this claim, not provide direct support to gay marriage (which has other support).

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

Come on, guys, 'fess up - you think there are absolute rights and wrongs, right?

Yes, I do. I think that it is an absolute truth that all humans are equal in rights and dignity.

Since marriage is a priviledge (however, it is a priviledge that should not be denied based on gender), so this truth doesn't apply to this thread. That is the only absolute truth (IMO) I can think of right now.

[Butterbeer]

Rian, if you are willing to stake, here, your whole moot debating and general moot reputation on comparing the rights of men and women with that of sex with animals and compare the morality of all God's sons and daughters with those of unatural acts of beast and man that are clearly against the word of God ... rather than admit you were joining in on a snide and smug attack on another mooter that seemed easy prey ...

than rather try to uphold a frankly (no offence ) stupid in the extreme position or to try and anger our intelligence with half-baked straw man diversions ...

all i can say, Ri - is please for the sake of all of us ... cut your losses on this stupidity - before you dig yourself into a position that you'll need to go against the word of the Lord to attempt to climb out of this debating pit.

best, BB x


and heh Ri ...no offence ... but this is silly and offensive in the extreme


... just to be clear: comparing the rights of human gays to animals is offensive in the extreme

.. and if you are not ... then as the gaffer says - you are, since you are intelligent, ... you are deliberatley playing with semantics in a most unsavoury way here.

Truth.

No offence meant- but this cannot pass.

best, BB x

[Rían]

BB - I'll have to wait and answer you fully tonight (my time) - right now I have kids in the pool and am keeping an eye on them, and I can't give your post the time it deserves. It was a big risk for me to make that post, as your response to it shows, but I think it will bring up some important discussion points.

And btw, I think that human beings are far above animals - I think they're a different order of CREATION entirely, as opposed to what I hear on the evolution threads from people saying that we're all just animals and it's snobbery to think that humans are any better than animals. And I think homosexuals are just as important and valuable as heterosexuals - we're all the same, IMO. And although I think that homosexual sex is a sin, just like many other sins which we all commit every day, I think it's not as bad as sins like pride.

Nurv - what I'm pointing out is that it seems that the no-absolute-truth people are acting like "sex should only be between consenting adults" is an absolute truth, which contradicts what they've said previously about absolute truths.

[The Telcontarion]

All I have to say about this is, it is a none issue!!! The whole Homosexual marriage issue is a distraction from the war and the spread of facism.

Don't you see how that degenerate bastard bush, brings this issue up when he he's facing tough questions.

Seriously, why would I care if anyone wants to get married or not, with all that's happening in the world? "Flockin" waste of my time!!!!!

[Butterbeer]

"flockin"???

"flippetty - heck!!"

there's more at stake here Tel, than just your patience or time, though ...


nice to meet you though.

best, BB

[Rían]

And BB, just to clarify, I'm not saying homosexual sex is like human/animal sex any more or less than heterosexual sex is, if that makes sense.

*is frustrated with lack of time right now*

[Butterbeer]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

And although I think that homosexual sex is a sin, just like many other sins which we all commit every day, I think it's not as bad as sins like pride.

when you say "we" are you labelling yourself a self-confessed sinner? or are you implying that all other mooters here are all sinners?

[The Telcontarion]

Yes I believe homosexuality is natural. However, it can also be artificially encouraged to develop, through vaccines for example; which is the reason why so many children develop autism!! It is also the same reason why remote villages in africa that do not have sex with any outsiders,(oviously because they are tribal) contract aids; babies are born with aids when their parents don't have it. Rian you have kids you say, you owe it to them to find out what I am saying about the vaccine before it is too late!!! Instead of wasting your time with this Gay, none issue.

Do you know that the these so called humanitarian groups extend much effort to get to these tribes in order to "help" these tribes with vaccines; but now these people are wise to the game, so when they see these doctors coming they actually run from them!!! But you don't her about that on the so called liberal CNN. Even when people are starving, they air lift food to them and you know that the people in africa leave it there on the docks to rot, because people that consumed the food in the past would just fall over and die; you don't hear about that.

Do you know that in plastic water bottles there is high concentrations of estrogen?!!! Oh yeah!!! Female harmones buddy!!!

Do you know these bastards are telling you how good soy is, when it also has very high levels of estrogen!!!

Do you know what aspartame is; it is the artificial sweetener in all diet drinks that causes sickness ranging from brain damage to cancer to lupos like ailments. do you drink diet coke Rian, have your kids ever drunken diet coke. And you have time for this gay issue.

They are attempting to unbalance our whole society in every way you can image. That all the time I have to waste on this none issue.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Yes I believe homosexuality is natural. However, it can also be artificially encouraged to develop, through vaccines for example; which is the reason why so many children develop autism!! It is also the same reason why remote villages in africa that do not have sex with any outsiders,(oviously because they are tribal) contract aids; babies are born with aids when their parents don't have it. Rian you have kids you say, you owe it to them to find out what I am saying about the vaccine before it is too late!!! Instead of wasting your time with this Gay, none issue.

Do you know that the these so called humanitarian groups extend much effort to get to these tribes in order to "help" these tribes with vaccines; but now these people are wise to the game, so when they see these doctors coming they actually run from them!!! But you don't her about that on the so called liberal CNN. Even when people are starving, they air lift food to them and you know that the people in africa leave it there on the docks to rot, because people that consumed the food in the past would just fall over and die; you don't hear about that.

Do you know that in plastic water bottles there is high concentrations of estrogen?!!! Oh yeah!!! Female harmones buddy!!!

Do you know these bastards are telling you how good soy is, when it also has very high levels of estrogen!!!

Do you know what aspartame is; it is the artificial sweetener in all diet drinks that causes sickness ranging from brain damage to cancer to lupos like ailments. do you drink diet coke Rian, have your kids ever drunken diet coke. And you have time for this gay issue.

They are attempting to unbalance our whole society in every way you can image. That all the time I have to waste on this none issue.

I know this is OT but...do you have anything against birth control pills? they are also artificial and do something to the female body that it was not meant to do. just curious

[The Telcontarion]

I do rember reading something about birth control that was very bad, it actually harms the female body; I don't remeber specifics.

But birth control in general wiether natural or unnatural, I do not think in itself is a bad thing.

I don't have a problem with unnatural products, just those that are bad for you.

[Arien the Maia]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I do rember reading something about birth control that was very bad, it actually harms the female body; I don't remeber specifics.

But birth control in general wiether natural or unnatural, I do not think in itself is a bad thing.

I don't have a problem with unnatural products, just those that are bad for you.

ok...just wanted to clarify