03-09-2008, 02:00 AM | #521 |
Elf Lord
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1)Buchanan
2)Andrew Johnson For bungling, respectively, the lead-up to, and the aftermath of, the Civil War. 3)Harding- general corruption Time will tell, but I'd rank Bush anywhere from fourth down to seventh or eighth. Better than the above, but certainly worse than Nixon or Hoover. Time will tell though- look what happened to Harry Truman's rep.
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03-09-2008, 03:18 AM | #522 | |
Elf Lord
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Encouraging news for Dems; 53%-47% in Denny Hastert's district:
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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03-09-2008, 08:07 PM | #523 | |
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But I'd say the pre-emptive war thing trumps everything else. We could at least make a fair case for the moral high ground on that prior to Iraq, mainly in the name of fighting communism and/or assisting governments that were under attack. GWB took that away. The USA will never again be seen by the world as a "nobel" superpower, which is probably more realistic, but a huge cost in terms of global capital.
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03-09-2008, 09:11 PM | #524 |
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What does the Nobel have anything to do with it?
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03-09-2008, 09:27 PM | #525 |
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03-10-2008, 11:55 AM | #526 | |||
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My Favorite Republican Presidents are: Lincoln, TR, and Eisenhower. Quote:
If the Iraq mission fails, it'll be one of the most disturbing and deep failures by America..."paper tiger" will be our nickname in the Middle-east again. Ok, here's a piece on Condi as McCain's VP. I like Condi, and I would be fine with her as a pick...except I feel her efforts on the Palestinian/Israeli front is very much a failure. Would we want her as a President with that record? On the other hand, the P/I front has hardly been a success PERIOD. So maybe this is just a drop in the bucket of her experience. What do you guys think? Quote:
I really don't know what to make of these New Yorker writers...one has to wonder, do they wander outside of the NY-media, mentally? How long has it been since a New Yorker has actually been down in the South?
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03-10-2008, 03:37 PM | #527 | |
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03-10-2008, 03:49 PM | #528 | |||||||
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As far as American foreign policy is concerned, Iraq is a complete and total disaster. Disasters have happened to many countries before and you can rebuild your reputation, but the mission in Iraq will never be seen in a positive light. Quote:
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Note: the links I posted are work and school-safe, even the one about Abu Ghraib.
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03-10-2008, 04:03 PM | #529 |
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It doesn't mean we should lose the war on purpose. Frankly, at this point, it doesn't matter what the world thinks of us. Winning in Iraq is more important than world opinion.
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03-10-2008, 04:18 PM | #530 | |||||
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9 Billion is very much worth it, if it's to make the world better, wouldn't you agree? People complain that America takes money from third-world countries...why would spending it be bad? It's kinda funny: rich people who spend their money are reviled, even though they're circulating the currency...but if you're a rich AND thrify person... Quote:
(and don't give me "the Civil War had more to do with secession", because slavery was one of the reasons that the South wanted to secede!) Quote:
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03-11-2008, 05:36 AM | #531 |
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IIRC, the $9bn in question is money that has been unaccounted for, i.e. vanished in the mercenary klondike. The total cost of the Iraq war is far, far higher.
For me, the significance of Abu Ghraib is relatively minor. It's a war: what did you expect? The main issue I have is the total disregard for the chaos, destruction and inevitable loss of hundreds of thousands of lives as a result of starting a "pre-emptive" war. Factor in the incompetence and questionable motives and you have a major step backwards for civilisation. |
03-11-2008, 11:56 AM | #532 | |
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The only part I don't understand is the "questionable motives" part. Why do Bush's reasons for going to war have to be malicious and evil? Whatever happened to the argument that good people do bad things because they think they are doing good?
Lefties... Anyways, this is an enjoyable column: http://townhall.com/columnists/BurtP...s,_and_peanuts Quote:
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03-11-2008, 12:27 PM | #533 | |
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I think anyone who looks objectively at the whole Iraq runup will realize that GWB wanted that war and intentionally twisted facts to make it seem like a good idea. His motives were very self-serving, which most would define as questionable. He may have thought he was doing good, but I don't even believe that was the case. I think he did it mainly to clean up his father's legacy and as a profitable business enterprise for his friends and allies (i.e. Halliburton).
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03-11-2008, 12:36 PM | #534 |
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Do you have a contracting company of choice that you would have preferred be in Iraq, BJ?
I do think we/he/they/whatever wanted to be in Iraq for reasons other than Saddam/WMD: namely, to create another U.S.-friendly middle-eastern country. I don't think that's a bad mission. And I don't buy the "he did it to clean up after his father's legacy". The middle-east is not only GHWB's legacy, it's also Reagan's, and Carter's. I think it was about cleaning up the middle-east in general, which is what Presidents have been trying to do.
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03-11-2008, 12:48 PM | #535 | |
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If you came to me and asked to borrow my car to go to the dentist, and, instead, took it out drinking and crashed it, I would say to myself "Hector lied about why he wanted my car. I don't want to pay for his damage." That is how many people feel about the Iraq war. And that is why many people feel President Bush is irresponsible and untrustworthy.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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03-11-2008, 02:21 PM | #536 | |||
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And if the majority of congress voted for the war, is that not in essence legitimizing the President? Only congress can declare war, but only the president can wage war. Congress voted for the war. Seems like a perfectly legal war to me. Hindsight is 20/20, but just to back that up, Saddam wasn't exactly trying to pretend he didn't have WMD...up till the moment he learned the US would invade and topple him. He was very much trying to pretend he had WMD. Quote:
Mom: Where are you going sweetie? Son: Oh I'm just going to the dentist mom, I'll be home for dinner. Mom: [thinking] Oh my son is going to the dentist of his own accord! I've raised such good kids. I do understand how people see GWB, but I don't think they are correct. Quote:
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03-11-2008, 02:29 PM | #537 | |
Elf Lord
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Since I didn't, I expect him to behave like a grown-up, at least, if not like the Leader of the Free World. We have differing impressions of what he knew, or, more importantly, what he was responsible for knowing before getting the nation into war. But that's what makes horseraces. I haven't said recently how much I enjoy chatting with you here about this stuff. It's always interesting, and I value it.
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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03-11-2008, 02:31 PM | #538 |
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You liked the dentist bit that much?
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03-11-2008, 02:51 PM | #539 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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In then end, perception is reality. Most of the world, and most of the US, think the invasion was a bad idea. Thus, it is. There are still a small group of diehards that think we could have won in Vietnam, but them thinking so doesn't make it reality for anyone but them.
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03-11-2008, 03:06 PM | #540 | ||||
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I do have a shawl made in Pakistan though. Quote:
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It was a war half-hearedly waged. We lost because we didn't care about winning to begin with.
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