10-05-2005, 08:52 PM | #521 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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No one else has conceded this point yet. Will anyone else concede it now? If not, why not? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-05-2005, 09:04 PM | #522 | ||||
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I almost regret conceding this point (I don't, but almost). Why? Because it's so dangerous and it can be abused horribly, and lead to prejudice. This is definitely not my goal. I know it also isn't your goal, which is why I felt I could concede this point to you.
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Ooh, brothers and sisters are marrying. That's a good one. I will admit that I think this is wrong and gross. We all have our prejudices. However, the reason I oppose siblings marrying is because legally, it would be too hard to do without impinging on other human rights. 1. Abortion is legal in Canada. (But not everywhere in the USA IIRC.) However, it would be wrong to require two married people to have abortions. The forced abortions by the Chinese government are so wrong. 2. There is a high possiblity for abuse here, IMO. This is one reason I'm also leery of polygamous marriages - there are high incidences of abuse, as shown by the recent incident in SW BC in a town whose name escapes me. I'd recognize it if I saw it. While one might argue that human rights are being impinged by not being able to marry your sibling or more than one person. However, I'm going to err on the cautious side of protecting really basic human rights. Gay people, however, do not have any higher incidences of abuse that straight people, so I have no problem with them getting married. edited for spelling
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10-06-2005, 12:16 AM | #523 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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This is a very serious and important topic, IMO, and reaches very deeply into people's souls (or the evolutionary equivalent ). I think it's important to give truthful answers, even if it somewhat "threatens" your position, because I think the truth is always the best for those involved. I strive to be very truthful, even if it "hurts" my position, like when I say I don't think early-term abortion should be illegal, even though I think it's murder. That puts me in all sorts of "difficulties", but darn it, I think it's true, so I"ll say it. Quote:
Basically, from my observations of the world around us, I think we're born with various innate : 1. physical attributes, 2. physical/mental abilities, and 3. desires (our sexual desires being one of those). I also think that our environment can affect all three of these things to varying degrees. However, I also think that there is something in each person that is ABOVE those innate qualities - what I would call the soul or heart of a person - and this something chooses, to a varying degree of freedom depending upon the makeup of the person and how strong #s 1, 2, and 3 are, what the person will do, depending upon what we would call moral determinations. (clear as mud? Wish I could word it better - are you following me?) So while I believe that a homosexual person does not CHOOSE to be that way (neither does a heterosexual person), I also believe that IF a homosexual person comes to believe, for WHATEVER reason, that homosexual relations are wrong, then they will strive to not enter into those relations, and have varying degrees of success. Exactly like how when I was single, I thought that the right and best thing for me was to not have sex until I got married, and so even though I had strong desires to have sex with various guys, my heart/soul overcame those desires (and also let me plan ahead what situations to NOT get into! because if I did, I knew it would be hard to keep that goal). I think I'll stop there for now - that's kind of a lot, and I'd like to make sure I explained it so you can understand it (altho maybe not agree with it ) Quote:
As far as #2, there's a higher risk of contracting diseases in male-male sex, so why not err on the cautious side there, too? I'll have to get to the rest later; I'm too tired now!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-06-2005, 02:15 AM | #524 | |||||
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Now, you bring up the point that there's a higher risk of contracting STDs between two males having sex. However, this is not a pre-requisite for marriage. I think a lack of abuse is. For everyone. Are you saying that there's no reason at all that two women shouldn't be allowed to get married? Risk of contracting an STD is lower between two women having sex than it is between two men. There's also a lot we can do about that. One think I'm convinced should happen right now, is a condom should be designed specifically for anal sex. One with less risk of tearing, for example. (Is there already one?)
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 10-06-2005 at 02:19 AM. Reason: edited for clarity |
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10-06-2005, 07:25 AM | #525 | |
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10-06-2005, 07:42 AM | #526 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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....hmmm, then genocide in Africa for religious grounds, jailing and killing in China for the same, Kristalnacht in WW II, slavery in the 1800's would all qualify for my agreement.
....Unfortunately "the will of the people" is often expressed in laws and does by it's very process, offend or to use a liberal by word, oppress, a minority.
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10-06-2005, 07:46 AM | #527 | ||||
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I would also agree that incest should not be legal, and I would accept that this means I am not granting such people equality with others. Quote:
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I guess that's why I questioned your experience of gays (sorry if it ticked you off): you strike me as a moral and highly empathic person and as such I would be surprised that you saw these situations as in any way comparable. Quote:
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10-06-2005, 07:48 AM | #528 | |
Lady Tipple & Queen of Blessed Thistle
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No No......it's AAWWWWWWWW!!!!! Spock!!! Fine points are being made....I wonder if government & social Globalization is going to shatter sexual rights or bolster.....
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Beer + Pizza = N'uff said Happy to be here The HACBR has been alerted to my postings…..Hobbits Against Constant Beer References Beer is living proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy. --Ben Franklin I want my Mooter T-Shirt! Last edited by EarthBound : 10-06-2005 at 07:54 AM. |
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10-06-2005, 08:34 AM | #529 |
Elf Lord
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Good question. It seems that there is a worldwide struggle between fundamentalism, which would erode sexual rights, and secularism, which mostly guarantees them.
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10-06-2005, 08:44 AM | #530 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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homosexuals are treated equally in out society, except in a select few areas (i.e. not allowed to marry)... so they are, in fact, not treated equally and while, as you said, you can vote for whatever you think is good for society... you can not say that you treat a certain group equally and at the same time vote against that very equality
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10-06-2005, 10:24 AM | #531 | |||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-06-2005, 10:27 AM | #532 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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If, in a few years, a minority of people think that marriage should only be between a man and a woman, will you campaign for the majority to not oppress the minority?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 10-06-2005 at 10:29 AM. |
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10-06-2005, 10:30 AM | #533 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-06-2005, 10:31 AM | #534 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-06-2005, 10:40 AM | #535 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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if you agree with this, then you are not treating them equally either... and if you extend this ban to gays, then you are not treating them equally you can't have it both ways
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. Last edited by brownjenkins : 10-06-2005 at 10:42 AM. |
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10-06-2005, 10:46 AM | #536 |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Here I go putting my one cent in.
Heterosexual is the definition a group and for that group Marriage is the ceremony. Homosexuals are a different group and so Civil Unions is their ceremony. They are completely different groups and as such should have their own definition and union. I am now going to get more coffee as this is putting me to sleep
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 10-06-2005 at 10:48 AM. |
10-06-2005, 10:52 AM | #537 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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i won't argue history... just that the distinction is unnecessary and not "equal"
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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10-06-2005, 11:48 AM | #538 | |
An enigma in a conundrum
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Vizzini: "HE DIDN'T FALL?! INCONCEIVABLE!!" Inigo: "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." Last edited by Spock : 10-06-2005 at 11:50 AM. |
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10-06-2005, 11:57 AM | #539 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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10-06-2005, 12:12 PM | #540 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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in our society if we decide a certain thing should not be the basis for any type of discrimination, be it skin color, sex, sexual practices, etc., we carry it across the board (at least in modern times) we don't say, "okay a woman have a job, but the can't have the title of president"... a purely semantic distinction, but one that carries underlying social implications with it... let a small bit of discrimination in, and people use it to justify larger discriminatory actions this is not to say that things can not be found to be unacceptable in society, and thus outlawed and discriminated against... i am only saying that you can't say on one hand that two groups are "equal" and then discriminate against them on the other we have done this in the past in other cases and learned to get past it... i hope that eventually we will once again
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