09-04-2006, 04:53 PM | #521 | |
Elf Lord
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Here's a quote from Wikipedia on the subject.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-04-2006, 04:59 PM | #522 | ||
Elf Lord
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What I have to say on that is thanks for posting it, Nurvi . It confirms too what I learned from Wikipedia about the state of the child after first Trimester. Definitely not just a "ball of cells." It has all the major organs and is a very recognizable human. I saw a picture of a fetus on the Wikipedia site, which is why I say that. It's incredible how fast that child develops! Quote:
Best, Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-04-2006, 05:02 PM | #523 |
Elf Lord
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aye ...hadn't even remembered that till ya said just now. .. (no problem anyway we shook like Gents and all is good my friend -
- actually i was thinking of another forum ... how was France? best wishes, whatever, BB |
09-04-2006, 06:13 PM | #524 | ||
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~Lief
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-04-2006 at 06:20 PM. |
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09-04-2006, 06:44 PM | #525 |
Elf Lord
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Good.
and what were, in relection, your thoughts? |
09-04-2006, 07:12 PM | #526 |
Elf Lord
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I'm going to respond to your question over PM, since this isn't a very good thread to do it in.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
09-04-2006, 07:27 PM | #527 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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(See you in my PM box, or over e-mail )
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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09-04-2006, 07:32 PM | #528 |
Elf Lord
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Here ya go! *Sends the PM off.*
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
09-06-2006, 10:43 PM | #529 | |||
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I agree that the development of a human being is very interesting. IIRC from my own link, the embryo becomes a fetus at nine weeks. It basically looks like an inch-long baby with a giant head (relatively speaking, I mean ), but I do not believe the fetus has organs at this point. I thought they develop in the second trimester. I have two conflicting thoughts in my head about abortion. 1. I have heard very convincing and well-thought out arguments against abortion, mainly from a buddy of mine from university residence who also happened to be a devout Catholic and very strongly anti-abortion. Also, I believe that adoption is a very positive and wonderful thing, and I wish that adoption agencies got more support from our government and our society. 2. I believe that until the moment of its birth a fetus is part of a woman's body, and if she feels she cannot provide a nurturing home for it, she has the right to abort it. (That being said, I only think third trimester abortions should be performed if the birth of the baby would result in the mother's death.) I think the fetus is a thinking, feeling human being, that the mother should be allowed to abort if absolutely necessary. So basically, I think abortions should be allowed, alternative choices should be made available (as abortions also should be), and I respect the opinion of anti-abortionists even when words like "genocide" and "murder" enter into the fray.
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09-07-2006, 01:19 AM | #530 | |
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Nurvi,
Do you think that, in a case of conjoined twins where most of the organs are in the body of one twin, the organ-deprived one should be considered a "part of the body" of the former, and thus expendable at his/her whim? Also, since you say that Quote:
If you think the fetus is a thinking, feeling human being, why do you think its life is less important than that of the mother?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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09-07-2006, 02:33 AM | #531 | ||||||
Elf Lord
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At the same time, I also understand that many of the people committing this crime and supporting the pro-choice movement don't believe they are committing murder at all. In my view, this to some extent lessens their guilt.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-07-2006, 04:33 AM | #532 |
Elf Lord
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(momentarily off-topic post ...)
For anyone interested in hearing about Lief's trip and thoughts on France, i can say they come highly recommended!! "..it's a sizzler! " (the BB times) "A triumph! " (BB today) "A likely winner of Travel PM of the year" (BB at 11 show on radio 4) ..................... Don't delay - PM him Today!! ! ..er. me pm box is full again Lief but i will get a reply to you before many mooms have passed! best BB ( /end of tiny off topicness) so, yeah -abortion, wouldn't like to have to make that choice myself - must be one of the hardest ever choices huh? you gotta feel for anyone who can't decide - knowing the decision will be with you always. Last edited by Butterbeer : 09-07-2006 at 05:40 PM. |
09-07-2006, 05:46 PM | #533 | ||||||||
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Yeah... abortion isn't exactly fun, but there it is. Quote:
I think this is the dividing point of the abortion debate. What you said is the foundation of anti-abortion beliefs. What I said (about the woman having the right to make the decision) is the foundation of pro-choice beliefs. These two views are completely opposite and can never reconcile. I think that we can agree to disagree here. I respect what you and Gwaimir are saying. Clearly you've put a lot of thought into the issue. To tell you the truth, if five minutes from now you turned around and said, "You know what, abortion isn't murder, it's actually okay," I'd think you were barking.
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09-07-2006, 05:49 PM | #534 |
Elf Lord
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is it a full moon?
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09-07-2006, 07:29 PM | #535 | |||||
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Well, as you don't think abortion needs to be more limited, it seems that you do think fetuses should be expendable, as that is largely the present situation. But see below for the resolution of this. Quote:
However, you said before: Quote:
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I think this is the dividing point of the abortion debate. What you said is the foundation of anti-abortion beliefs. What I said (about the woman having the right to make the decision) is the foundation of pro-choice beliefs. These two views are completely opposite and can never reconcile. I think that we can agree to disagree here. I respect what you and Gwaimir are saying. Clearly you've put a lot of thought into the issue. To tell you the truth, if five minutes from now you turned around and said, "You know what, abortion isn't murder, it's actually okay," I'd think you were barking. [/QUOTE]
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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09-08-2006, 01:43 AM | #536 | |||
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I find this a horrific scenario. Not a mother's right, but simple evil. What if the killed fetus was you? A human being, though small and still simplistic in many ways, but with all the major organs. A little person with toes and fingers and a big head. The notion of being him or her and being killed like that is very scary. I'm not talking about embryonic abortion here, though really, that stage just lasts for the first couple months. For that too, I don't think we have any right to decide for this little human that it wouldn't live a good enough life or we don't want to take care of it. Quote:
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Many of the people I've met, like you, think that the child is a real thinking, feeling human being. Insidious Rex is the only pro-choice person I've debated with here who doesn't think so, and so he's the only one here whose opposite opinion on this I can have any respect for. For those people who realize what they're doing and do it anyway, it's just murder.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-08-2006 at 01:47 AM. |
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09-08-2006, 01:45 AM | #537 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-09-2006, 03:11 PM | #538 | |||
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The mother does have the right because she has to make this decision. The fetus is a thinking, feeling human being because its brain is operational and it is a homo sapiens sapiens. We can acknowledge these scientific facts without then agreeing that abortion is murder. Ultimately, the fetus is part of the mother's body, and she not only has the right, but the obligation to make decisions about her body. The mother has to decide that if the baby is born, can she really give it life? Can she provide for it and see it to adulthood? Not everyone has these resources. Earlier when I said that abortions should be for when its absolutely necessary, what I was being unclear about is I believe if someone is going to have an abortion, it is absolutely necessary. People don't have this incredibly painful (emotionally and physically) unless to them, it is necessary. That's what I meant, but I didn't phrase it well. I feel that your position is overly simplistic. I wish that we could eliminate abortions altogether by having ample resources available for all unwanted pregnancies, but as it stands our society is very far from this position.
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09-09-2006, 04:41 PM | #539 |
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Just an interesting little story I found.
A professor at the UCLA Medical School presented the following case history to his students: A woman who suffers from tuberculosis is pregnant. Her husband has syphilis. There are three children in the family. One is blind, another deaf, and the other suffers tuberculosis. Yet, another child died in infancy. Under the circumstances, most of the students recommended an abortion. They were then informed by their Professor: "Congratulations, you've just killed Beethoven !"
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09-09-2006, 04:57 PM | #540 | |||||
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Should we make it legal for mothers to kill their five or six year old children, if they don't feel they can give them good lives? If your answer is no (as I know it is), then tell me why not? Quote:
I know that your response will be that this is not murder, but I'm simply explaining that the justification for killing that has been presented is insufficient, when one considers this person as being a thinking, feeling human being. Quote:
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When the child is in the womb, I believe that many people feel less responsible because they don't actually see what they're doing with their own eyes. If they had the little child in front of them and had to do it themselves, most people would not. It's an invisible generation as well as a silent one that is being wiped out.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-09-2006 at 04:59 PM. |
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