Theological Opinions

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

Rian - on the minor quibble of the naming of the Torah, it is very much only the Pentateuch. The rest is the Tanakh (Torah, Nevi'im, Ketuvim, with the first letters made into a word... Nevi'im is Writings and Ketuvim Prophets, unless I have them in the wrong order). That's the correct meaning of the Hebrew words, however carelessly they made be utilized.

I disagree - and IIRC, Rad agrees with me. However, it may just be a change in use of the word.

Which ties into Rian's point, as Judaically Christ does NOT have final authority in interpretation.

Christ DOES have the final authority in interpretation IF one believes He is the Law-Giver, because the Giver of the Law has the most authoritative say in the matter. Officially, however, Judaism does not recognize Christ as the Law-Giver. But you seemed to be referencing Christianity, which is built on Judaism, and in Christianity, since Jesus is seen as God (the Law-giver), then any interpretation Jesus has is the final word on the matter.

But the interpretation of the lines about circumcision I stand by. The covenant IS the circumcision.

There is more than one covenant made by God.

The covenant illustrated by physical circumcision is one of them. I don't think the covenant "IS" circumcision; the covenant is illustrated or sealed by circumcision. The covenant "IS" for God "to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."

But it does mean that an uncircumcised Hebrew does NOT have God as his god.

UNLESS that uncircumcised Hewbrew comes under another covenant by which God says He will be our God - the covenant of faith. Even in the OT, God says that He wants us to circumcize our hearts (Deut 10:16; Deut 30:6, with an interesting forward-reference to Jesus' summation of the law in Matthew 22; Leviticus 26:41; Jer 4:4) And an interesting verse I'll quote, instead of just giving a reference, further illustrates that God's desire is circumcision of the heart, and physical circumcision is a picture -

Jeremiah 9:25,26
"Behold, the days are coming," declares the Lord, "that I will punish all who are circumcised and yet uncircumcised - ... and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised of heart."

[Rían]

And Christians are circumcised in Christ -

"and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ..." (Colossians 2:11)

[Rían]

(grrr - still trying to get my posts to show - darn error!)

[Lief Erikson]

Count Comfect, are you a Jew? Reading your most recent post, it looks like it. Almost everyone on these religion threads is an atheist, an agnostic or a Christian, so having a Jew here would be pretty neat. Are you a member of the Jewish faith?

I am extremely excited at the idea of meeting a Jew and being able to discuss religion with him, particularly as you seem pretty knowledgeable about the scripture . Having a solid base like the Old Testament will be wonderful in terms of common ground.

Now, I don't believe you really responded to my post #517. A response to the scriptures and other arguments I brought up would be great.

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

I will establish my covenant and be a god to thee. This is my covenant: every man of you shall be circumcised. That's where my belief that it is indeed the circumcision that is the covenant which in turn is what makes God our god.

And yes, the righteous shall receive life. That is a separate statement from "keep my covenant." As I said, it is different to be righteous and to have God as your god. Being righteous IS blessed... but it does not make God your god. The token of the covenant to have God as your god is the circumcision. Being righteous means God likes you (in a very very simplified way), while being circumcised means that you are keeping the covenant with God, the other half of which is that God shall be your god. They are two different things, both of which God would like to see in us.

I agree that circumcision is beneficial. Paul also said that being a Jew and being circumcised is "beneficial in every way!" However, in terms of the relationship with God, it is irrelevant. It is a sign that you are following God, a symbol of your being set apart for God. However, as a symbol, it does not have real power. The fact that a person is circumcised does not mean that they are really following God.

Remember that in the scripture, God banished the people of Israel from their land because of their wickedness. He struck them with curses and plagues, with destructions at the hands of invaders and all sorts of other assaults because of their wickedness. Their being circumcised was irrelevant to this. Twice they were banished from their promised land, in the Babylonian and Assyrian captivities, even though they were circumcised. God consistently blessed the kings that were righteous and cursed the kings that were wicked, in accord with the Mosaic Law, and the promises of Deuteronomy. The fact that they were circumcised did not mean that the evil kings of Israel were truly following God.

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

And clearly "looking at the New Testament" and "looking at the Pentecost" aren't going to convince me that God talks to people, because I consider them false prophets, in a religious sense. However much their teaching may be good. And I really don't want to offend, but that would be the Judaic reading, that these are false prophets and false signs. And similarly I don't believe the bit of Joel has come true, as the Messiah has not come. Which ties into Rian's point, as Judaically Christ does NOT have final authority in interpretation.

RÃ*an was stating a belief, not making a point or an argument.

Let me ask you this (a lot of questions, I know, but I'm pleased at the chance to talk with a Jew ). Why do you believe that Jesus was not the Messiah?

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

This runs directly into the conflict between being Jewish and being Christian, so I don't think it is particularly fruitful. Clearly I don't believe in the NT or the Pentecost or Christ-as-Messiah and you do. That is plain and simple because we are of different religions. So I'm not going to go any further into it because I don't feel it is helpful to any meaningful discussion.

Look at the Old Testament, then. God talked repeatedly to his people through judges, prophets and others. Prayer was two-way communication then, and that is how Christians teach it now.

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

But the interpretation of the lines about circumcision I stand by. The covenant IS the circumcision. Note that God being "our god" does not preclude him from being someone else's god for different reasons, or preclude him from punishing us if we don't obey other commandments. But it does mean that an uncircumcised Hebrew does NOT have God as his god. Righteousness is needed for God's approval - but circumcision is needed first.

What, in your opinion, does it mean precisely for "God to be our god"?

Relationship

Here is what it means to me, for God to be my god. If God is my god, I am following him. He is making me like him, transforming me and making me more and more righteous. He set me apart from darkness and is making me holy. He looks after me as my sword and shield, gives me knowledge when I most need it, talks with me and chats with me, blesses me. He is merciful, he looks after me. He tests me sometimes, but never more then I can bear, and always for my own betterment. He watches over me always. He is protective. If I turn from him, he will discipline me, but he is loathe to do this.

There is probably much more to it then this. But the relationship between a father and his child perfectly symbolizes my relationship with God. He is available; I can talk with him. He is protective, keeping those things from me that are harmful and giving me those gifts I am ready for. He lets the bounty of his house be mine, as he would not for a stranger. He teaches me what is right, disciplining me only when absolutely necessary.

That is precisely the relationship I'm talking about. I'm talking about the ideal father here, but that is what I've experienced of God.

I'm very sorry if you have not encountered him yet in this blessed way. You mentioned how difficult it is to have just believe in scriptures written 4,000 years ago.



I think there is good reason to believe in the Old Testament. Archaeology has backed it up on many important historical points. The writings of Genesis in several places closely parallel real events as described by science (dinosaurs are in Genesis, Pangea, and even in my opinion hints of evolution by environment). The medical understanding displayed in Leviticus was thousands of years ahead of its time.

Even if super-early copies of the documents from earlier times are not in our possession, what we know about the Massoretic dating methods is extremely marvelous. The Jewish scholars took such care of the Old Testament that if even the smallest brushstroke on one of the pages they were copying was done wrongly, they would throw it out. They took the most extreme care imaginable in copying the texts. They actually purposely destroyed their earliest texts, because when they got older, their appearance could grow slightly distorted. The Jews were zealous in refusing to allow even the slightest error to be seen within any of their scripture manuscripts.

Even with all this, though, the only evidence for the God you believe in is not to be found in the Old Testament's self-supporting validity. The Old Testament has many magnificent prophesies of the Messiah, many of which were fulfilled by Jesus. Also, God is still possible to contact through Christianity. That I can promise you. He has not abandoned his people or demanded that they simply trust ancient manuscripts. He is there, ready to speak to them. Jesus said, "behold, I stand at the door and knock! To him who hears my voice and opens the door, I shall come and eat with him, and he with me."

I can testify to the truth of that scripture. He reaches out to Israel still, and he speaks to those who believe in him, as Abraham did. These people are righteous and they follow him by obeying his commands.

[Lief Erikson]

Your 4:38 post shows now, but mine don't . That is irrelevant, of course. Besides, just possibly they might show after this post . . . (looks hopeful)

[Count Comfect]

I am indeed Jewish... I thought I'd made that clear from the start. Sorry.

Ironically, it is exactly at the point I actually admit that that I also say that the volume of postage here is so high I'm not sure I can stay abreast of the discussion. Anyway. Onward.

Why don't I believe Jesus is the Messiah - I don't believe he actually fulfills all the requirements. To start with, the Messiah really is supposed to usher in an era of peace, and that has not happened. I know there are many ways of getting out of that, but my Messiah comes once and brings peace. He isn't here yet.

As I have said, the circumcision does not prevent God from punishing us for trangressions. But a) punishment for not being circumcised would be to have God reject you... Exodus 20

[5] for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
[6] And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

For us (not necessarily you... you aren't Jewish, and as I said, our relationship with God does not preclude you having a different one) to not circumcise is to hate and reject God. And on with the visitation of iniquity onto the heads of the parents and children!

To have God as our god is to have the commandments and the promise of the land of Israel, primarily. Also, it is to have God particularly interested in our affairs (Chosen People type of thing). It can indeed mean what you have said about your relationship with God - and you can have yours without circumcision. But I believe that for a Jew/Hebrew (rather than for a Gentile, which you are, and we are not told what happens with you, our scripture is fairly us-centric) you cannot have God as your god - you do not participate in his blessing or his promise - if you are not circumcised.

Prayer is indeed two-way communication with God. And God did indeed send prophets. But remember Jeremiah 14:

[13] Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
[14] Then the LORD said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
[15] Therefore thus saith the LORD concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.

So there are false prophets as well. And since so much of Christianity is an antithesis (fulfillment or rejection, it is opposite - you may eat pork, you do not have to circumcise, etc) of Jewish doctrine, I feel justified in saying that for Israel, these are false prophets. If they speak to the Gentiles, they may be correct. I do not know. But not to Jews.

And I don't believe it is hard to relate to old texts - I simply meant it was superEASY for Abraham, with God seemingly popping up every so often to chat (warning: I can get very lax with the awe). I believe they are just as applicable now as then, although I do disagree with some of the interpretation that has grown up around them, like rabbis who say you cannot play soccer on Shabbat because it might end up making something that looks like a furrow so you did work .

[Rían]

Count - yes, the posts can be really flying here sometimes! Great discussions

Regardless of what you think of Jesus, what do you think of the interpretation of the law and the prophets that he offered that I quoted in Matthew?

[Count Comfect]

I still stand by that circumcision is the covenant, but it does NOT prevent God from punishing us. As I've said many times, and will stop saying from now on, there CAN BE other covenants. This is the one he has with the Jewish people. I am not saying you must be circumcised, unless you are a Jew.

And as for the interpretation, I think it's a bit simplistic, if you're talking about "Love your neighbour as yourself" and "Love the Lord your God with all your mind, with all your strength, with all your spirit" But yes, the law does flow from that. That's an old Jewish tradition too. There's a story about the great Rabbi Hillel who said something similar, only it's more amusing. Has to do with a guy standing on one leg until he can learn the Torah, and Hillel gives him that summary.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

Why don't I believe Jesus is the Messiah - I don't believe he actually fulfills all the requirements. To start with, the Messiah really is supposed to usher in an era of peace, and that has not happened. I know there are many ways of getting out of that, but my Messiah comes once and brings peace. He isn't here yet.

Let me point out that there are Jewish Rabbis who have analyzed the scriptures that predict the coming of the Messiah and have found two different versions of his coming. They have actually said that the two accounts of the coming Messiah are so different that they require two different returns. While they don't say this must be the same person, for it to be one person certainly fits this well.

The prophecies that they don't think fit together are the two different roles that their Messiah has. On the one hand, the Old Testament declares him coming as a suffering servant. Isaiah and Psalms have some extremely clear prophecies in them indicating this. On the other hand, there are other scriptures which describe him coming as a warrior. Daniel talks about the Anointed One being "cut off" before Jerusalem and its Temple are destroyed (Daniel 9:26), and Isaiah talks about God sending the Messiah to the grave. He dies in suffering, according to Isaiah.

Isaiah actually seems, however, to make these two versions of his coming fit together. The powerful prophecy of the Messiah in Isaiah 53 describes a succession of events.

First, in verse 9, the Messiah is assigned a grave with the wicked, and is with the rich in his death. Then in verse 11 he sees the light of life, and seemingly coming back to life, he conquers his enemies. That is in verse 12. You see here the exact Christian succession of events. He dies, he is resurrected, he then conquers.

There are Jewish Rabbis that have conjectured two different comings also, because the dying suffering servant described all over scripture and in Psalms 22 don't seem to mix too well with the victorious leader.

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

As I have said, the circumcision does not prevent God from punishing us for trangressions. But a) punishment for not being circumcised would be to have God reject you... Exodus 20

If God promised Canaan to Israel in exchange for their being circumcised, then wouldn't he be stepping back on this promise in banishing them to Babylon and Assyria?

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

For us (not necessarily you... you aren't Jewish, and as I said, our relationship with God does not preclude you having a different one) to not circumcise is to hate and reject God. And on with the visitation of iniquity onto the heads of the parents and children!

I agree that iniquity certainly can be passed on from parents to children, husband to wife, king to countrymen, or Adam to humanity. It's a scripture principle that frequently comes up in the Bible.

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

To have God as our god is to have the commandments and the promise of the land of Israel, primarily. Also, it is to have God particularly interested in our affairs (Chosen People type of thing). It can indeed mean what you have said about your relationship with God - and you can have yours without circumcision. But I believe that for a Jew/Hebrew (rather than for a Gentile, which you are, and we are not told what happens with you, our scripture is fairly us-centric) you cannot have God as your god - you do not participate in his blessing or his promise - if you are not circumcised.

Tell me what you think of this verse from Romans, and how it bears up under history's gaze (my reference here is to the exiles the Jewish people have experienced).

Originally Posted by Romans 2:25

Circumcision has value if you observe the law, but if you break the law, you have become as though you had not been circumcised.

Doesn't that make sense? Circumcision is a sign of being set apart from God, a symbol of what happens in the heart. Please comment on the scripture passage RÃ*an just brought up, Jeremiah 9:25-26.

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

So there are false prophets as well. And since so much of Christianity is an antithesis (fulfillment or rejection, it is opposite - you may eat pork, you do not have to circumcise, etc) of Jewish doctrine, I feel justified in saying that for Israel, these are false prophets. If they speak to the Gentiles, they may be correct. I do not know. But not to Jews.

:/ Jesus said that he had come to the lost sheep of Israel.

Count Comfect, do you believe that your actions are sufficient, that you have fulfilled the Law in the life you have lived? Do you believe that any Jew has the ability to fulfill the Law, with all its demands and regulations? Or do you think that God will accept you simply because you do your best?

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

As I've said many times, and will stop saying from now on, there CAN BE other covenants. This is the one he has with the Jewish people. I am not saying you must be circumcised, unless you are a Jew.

Yep, I too will readily testify that you have already said that .

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

And as for the interpretation, I think it's a bit simplistic, if you're talking about "Love your neighbour as yourself" and "Love the Lord your God with all your mind, with all your strength, with all your spirit" But yes, the law does flow from that. That's an old Jewish tradition too. There's a story about the great Rabbi Hillel who said something similar, only it's more amusing. Has to do with a guy standing on one leg until he can learn the Torah, and Hillel gives him that summary.

I like that story .

[Count Comfect]

I do feel it is possible to fulfill the Law. I do not know if I have done so. But the day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) is there for us who have not succeeded in fully doing all that was asked of us, in order that we may receive atonement from sins against God.

And I would say that that verse from Romans is incorrect, in that there is still a virtue to circumcision for the lawbreaker. He has Yom Kippur open to him if he is truly penitent, whereas if he were Jewish and uncircumcised he would not because God would not be his god in the correct way.

EDIT: And I really don't want to offend with the false prophet stuff, but that is how I would interpret the coming of Christ to the Jews. Your opinions/beliefs may vary.

[Spock]

May I dash in for a moment? Yes circumcision defined (s) Jewish law, however, that was then and it was for many reasons, including covenant. Now there are other reasons and covenants and so IMO a male Jew may or may not have this proceedure done, especially if his parents are Reform.

[Count Comfect]

I would disagree (and I am Reform), but I really have no interest in imposing my opinions here on someone else, so your mileage may vary.

[Spock]

Oh, no problem and no imposing was percieved. I didn't think it was necessary to put IMO but of course it was. There are many variations out there as we can see from the posts. Shalom.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Count Comfect

EDIT: And I really don't want to offend with the false prophet stuff, but that is how I would interpret the coming of Christ to the Jews. Your opinions/beliefs may vary.

Oh, absolutely no offence taken whatsoever It's always a pleasure talking to someone with different beliefs that can discuss things with intelligence and consideration of others, as you do.

I do feel it is possible to fulfill the Law. I do not know if I have done so. But the day of Atonement (Yom Kippur) is there for us who have not succeeded in fully doing all that was asked of us, in order that we may receive atonement from sins against God.

Do you think it is possible to never, ever, break a commandment, not even one? Even breaking a command accidentally or without intention counts as breaking a commandment, too, IIRC.

And how can you receive atonement on Yom Kippur if there is no Temple? There can be no sacrifice for the atonement, since there is no Temple, or at least that's my understanding.

An interesting note on the concept of the covenant between God and a person/people - the word is "improperly" used, because man is not in a position to be an independant covenanting party (as would be the case between two men). It's interesting that with God's covenant with Abraham, after God provided the substitutionary offering of a ram in place of Isaac (viewed by Christians as a foretelling of Christ's substitutionary death for us), when the ram was slaughtered and split open so the covenanting parties could pass through (signifying "may this be done to me if I don't keep the covenant"), ONLY GOD passed through, and not Abraham. Normally, in a covenant between two men, BOTH men would pass through. However, God took the weight of the covenant between Himself and Abraham fully on Himself.

(and interesting thing in Leviticus 16 - the "scapegoat" concept - another foretelling of Christ in the opinion of Christians.)

[Count Comfect]

(And of course we interpret the scape goat as, well, a goat. With the four legs and hoofs )

You receive atonement without the Temple through prayer, as he did for Moses in the desert: (Numbers 14)

[19] Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now.
[20] And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word:

You can see in this a precedent for forgiveness by talking with God - ie prayer. Also, of course, something had to be done back before the Temple was built, in the time of David, Saul, Samuel and before. And I believe that was prayer.

And I think it is theoretically possible to never ever break a commandment. Not easy, mind you, but theoretically possible.

[Rían]

But why was this particular goat called a "scape goat"? What was the reason behind that name?

Interesting thoughts on prayer ...

And what do you think of my OT verses on circumcision? how even in the OT, God said you could be circumcised physically but not in the heart, and the heart "circumcision" was what was important?

[Spock]

[QUOTE=RÃ*an]But why was this particular goat called a "scape goat"? What was the reason behind that name?

One site that give definitions for the terms connected with this is:
http://www.piney.com/Edersheim16.html

Another quote has it thus : "Apparently invented by Tyndale (1530) to express what he believed to be the literal meaning of Hebrew . . . Azazel, occurring only in Lev. 16:8, 10 (in vs. 10 he renders: "The goote on which the lotte fell to Scape."). The same interpretation is expressed by the Vulgate caper emissarius (whence the Fr., bouc emissaire), and by Coverdale's (1535) rendering "the fregoate," but is now regarded as untenable. The word does not appear in the Revised Version of 1884, which has "Azazel" (as a proper name), in the text, and "dismissal" in the margin, as an alternative rendering.—Oxford English Dictionary, vol. 9, p. 180. "

see http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/qod/q34.htm for more on that controversy.

[Count Comfect]

Rian - My response to the OT verses on circumcision of the heart is the same as I've said before... yes, you do have to also follow God's laws (circumcision of the heart), to be Jewish you also need the other circumcision.

[Lief Erikson]

Thanks for responding to that of my post which you did, Count. I'll wait for response to the rest, before I post .