07-17-2002, 11:02 AM | #521 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Can anything exist without properties? Doubtful. That matter obeys certain rules under some known circumstance may or may not fit a "matrix". At some point the matrix breaks down and a new matrix takes over. Some levels of existence are beyond human capacity to observe. Does that imply design? Only if we (now it's appropriate) anthropomorphize the behavior of matter, gravity, space, and time. Asking "how" versus asking "why" is the difference between science and philosophy. Both are valid questions within the disciplines. They are not the same question. How the universe functions will not tell us why the universe functions. Whatever advances in science are made, they are made to the ends of understanding the "how". A philosophy can be based on science as a means of understanding existence. Adding the concept of intent into the equation pushes the discussion into the unknown and only begs to have more "ornamentation" of the designer's intent. At that point the discussion of theism is a disconnect with the starting point of scientific understanding. Quote:
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-17-2002, 04:43 PM | #522 | ||||||||||||||||||||
Elf Lord
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Of course it can be taken too far. However I don't see where that's happened. Quote:
Yes my shovel is bigger than yours, but in this particular case you've misinterpreted the point. Quote:
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As for a flawed metaphysical postulation, I have yet to see you prove that. As for comparing apples and oranges, I think you are getting the idea that I'm comparing ID with plate tectonics or singularities, when it's not so. I was comparing these once out of favor theories with the idea that evolution is a method of calculation. Which is not a metaphysical assertion. Quote:
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I would even argue that doing so changes humanity to a degree. So that our concept of who we are also grows. It's a cycle. Our concept of "god" changes. We investigate. We understand (eventually). We change. Our concept of "god" changes. etc. Currently science is the doctrine, and "nature" or "happenstance order" (which is chaos in disguise) is the "god". Will it always be so? I can't wait to see, if I get the chance. Quote:
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According to that view, any time I feel like making up a new type of deity I'll be inventing a new form og theism. Lets try the gnostic deity, who's power derives from knowledge, has set up the universe according to certain arcane principles, as a puzzle, for the participants to solve. He doesn't work through revelation, but he does give hints. We can call it Gnostheism. Sure we can sub-divide and specify all day long, and still be talking about theism. We can even argue about whether deism is a form of monotheism, or a seperate category on the same level of heirarchy, or a category through exception. But that still doesn't illustrate to me WHY there's an objection to discussing deism (or polytheism, or ontotheism, or even gnostheism) in a thread entitled theism. I can understand if you want to say, well everyone should just understand we were talking about judeo-christian monotheism. After all it makes it much easier to marshall arguments, and such. But I've found it's usually easier, and more utilitarian, to be more specific up front if I want to limit such a discussion. I suppose an analogy to illustrate my confusion would be a thread entitled "internal combustion engines" and then someone wonders why there's an objection to discussing Wankel Rotaries, because someone's telling them that they obviously meant only Ford and Chevrolet products. Quote:
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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07-17-2002, 05:50 PM | #523 |
The Insufferable
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It's my experience that calling yourself pedantic isn't the best thing to do in an argument. ]: )
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07-17-2002, 06:37 PM | #524 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I think we've agreed and disagreed on enough that it's pointless to go on. If we do continue we maybe should not try to discuss 7 or eight points on each post.
Wayfarer, I was wondering when you'd happen along. BH, did you have a good birthday? I'm off to dinner and then a swim. If anything strikes me as relevant AND interesting, I'll get back to you.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
07-17-2002, 06:44 PM | #525 |
The Insufferable
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Oh, I've been paying attention to this thread since I got back, and I have all confidence that Old Blackie is up to dealing with you heathen tarks. ]: )
I just don't have the time to reply to even a fraction of the things that have been brought up, and frankly it wouldn't be worth it if I did. And after all, as Clive Staples once wrote "The hardest thing to get people today to realize is that you're preaching christianity simply because you happen to think it's true."
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 07-17-2002 at 06:52 PM. |
07-17-2002, 10:05 PM | #526 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I wish I had something better to do. I was supposed to have surgery yesterday, but it was postponed. Now, I'm on hold until the end of August. At least I get a little more pool time, but I turned down a contract because I was supposed to be out of commission.
Your Staples quote is true. Preaching fits nicely into Skinnerian behavioral reinforcement. It is inconsistently successful so as to make the behavioral pattern better imprinted. The hardest thing to get a preacher realize is that you have heard it all before.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
07-18-2002, 05:15 PM | #528 | |
The Insufferable
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned |
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07-18-2002, 11:47 PM | #529 |
Hoplite Nomad
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anduril thanks for link
when i get time later I'll comb throught it.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-19-2002, 02:18 AM | #530 |
Hoplite Nomad
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One of the links had a list of quick and dirty theist refutations
I'm sorta burnt out from arguing with believers. Just looking for my little core refutations for the basic " how can you not believe" people I've got some stuff I'm been compling so I can keep it short and sweet
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-19-2002, 03:23 PM | #531 |
The Insufferable
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If you think you can, then out with it!
Here's my argument. Christianity makes the most sense. It fits the most facts, and it requires the least mental gymnastics.
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 07-19-2002 at 03:47 PM. |
07-19-2002, 04:30 PM | #532 |
The Original Corruptor
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The hardest thing to get a priest to realize is that you are not that way inclined.
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07-19-2002, 04:36 PM | #533 |
The Insufferable
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That was funny, once I realized what you were suggesting.
English is your primary language, isn't it? Or are you spending to much time with Aelf?
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07-19-2002, 04:41 PM | #534 |
The Original Corruptor
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What, pray tell, am I suggesting?
English is pretty much my only language... ...although when upset I do spout some Ethenopian... |
07-19-2002, 05:06 PM | #535 |
The Insufferable
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Oh, nothing.
It's not that you make bad use of english... but that you were somewhat unclear. I had to think for a moment before realizing what you meant, and I would have phrased it differently. No matter.
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07-19-2002, 05:38 PM | #536 | |
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rofl. Oh yes, makes most sense. Can you support that statement? If that is your main arguement, that is the weakest arguement concerning this topic that I have ever seen. Virgin birth, Some guy that may or may not have existed is supposed to be my savior and if he did exist hes been dead for thousands of years, guy rises out of his grave, whats up with that "holy ghost"? etc, etc :rolls eyes: Oh yes, most factual. MY BUTT! If you really want to get technical, it is less "factual" and makes the lease "sense" than Judiasm. Jews use only the Torah, which is Christianity's First testament. It is comprised of some pretty unbelievable stuff. Makes sense? not really. But it does make more sense than Christianity and its pretty obvious for one reason. The absence of the New Testament. There is no Jesus in the Torah. There are even more less unbelievable things in that new testament than in the old one. In no way am I saying that Judiasm is a better religion, I'm not. What I'm saying is 2 books of silly fables is less believable than 1 silly book of fables - but both are rediculous. Religion is based on faith, not fact. Wayfarer, you have zip to back up anything you say. There IS NO WAY to prove the existance of god or the truth of anything in the Bible. And no religions make sense. What you made was a statement made without any thought. Have you studied any other religions or systems of belief extensively or at all?? No, and neither have I really. And I don't mean hearing or learning a little bit about other religions and customs. I mean knowing as much about yours as you do about another, and you do not. Have you studied Islam. Why is Christianity more believable than that?? huh? Why is it more believable than Judiasm? Religions aren't meant to make sense. They were made by people who were afraid - who wanted to explain nature and what happened. They were made to control ignorant people. Like how the Christian Church ruled over in Europe. Killing people with new ideas (ie: the world is round) and that did not believe in their religion. Finally people are waking up, they are actually using their brains, questioning things. You should never take things such as this as fact. You should doubt, analyze. Make your own decisions. Oh well.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
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07-19-2002, 06:05 PM | #537 |
The Rogue Elf
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Wayfarer & HOBBIT: you two did both of those same statements in the Anti-Theist thread. This is proof that some arguments just cannot be fought, and religion is one of them. From this day forward, I am no longer going to explain my beliefs or lack thereof because no one is going to take them into consideration. They will always fight back with pseudo-questions like "How can you not believe with [insert miracle here]?"
Religion is not only the fears of humans, but also the fables of the most brilliant political men who once lived: those who knew that the best way to control a person was to threaten them with an all-mighty figure in control of their soul for all eternity, in order to keep them from doing certain things. Hell is the prison in the believer's mind, and they didn't want to be caged in it - they wanted the beautiful and exquisite Heaven full of eternal bliss with God. So they believed, because being good gave them a reward - and we all know how people will do anything for a reward. We are born with one thing that separates us from all other animals: analytical and reasoning thought. And yet, that power is rendered from the masses because of religion: the mastermind of control above all other schemes. How? Simple - it teaches us how we are to think. Last edited by Rána Eressëa : 07-19-2002 at 06:24 PM. |
07-19-2002, 06:16 PM | #538 |
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exactly. Wayfarer is not going to listen, he just keeps repeating his arguements. I doubt he even read my posts in the other topics. I actually am listening to his "arugements" and responded why they are false. No one in this topic will change their minds, so there is no point.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
07-19-2002, 06:35 PM | #539 |
The Rogue Elf
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I think you're better off just closing this thread, too, HOBBIT. It's just the same statements made in continuum.
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07-19-2002, 06:47 PM | #540 |
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I agree, topic closed.
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President Emeritus (2000-2004) Private message (or email) me if you need any assistance. I am here to help! "I'm up to here with cool, ok? I'm so amazingly cool you could keep a side of meat in me for a month. I am so hip I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis" - Zaphod Beeblebrox Latest Blog Post: Just Quit Facebook? No One Cares! |
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