11-22-2008, 10:36 PM | #521 | |||||||||||
Co-President of Entmoot
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While I am a Christian, I still think about what I believe and I don't always align perfectly with what I perceive to be what we're supposed to believe. (I'm very sorry about the syntax of the preceding sentence.) Quote:
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If someone said, "Harm innocent people," then we have a problem. But there aren't any Pagan belief systems that I've ever heard of that teach this. Quote:
Well, it's a moot point since Jesus or God never did say "Paganism = Satan" right? Maybe sometimes I do think blasphemous thoughts. I will accept that God might not be impressed with me for the heretical/blasphemous things that I sometimes think. But He did give me a great brain, I like to think that He wants me to use it, even if I am sometimes rebellious. Sometimes I don't feel like I fit in as a Christian, but no other faith describes my beliefs as well. (No faith describes them perfectly though.) I am very hestitant to divest myself from a religion where Jesus Christ is a central figure. Quote:
The Bible is against Christians practicing other religions at the same time. I think. I mean, if we say that we are Christian and commit to worshipping God, we can't go around also worshipping Enki. I do have a small hammer of Thor carved of stone though. But I don't worship it. I doubt the Bible, which contains the commandment to love thy neighbour, is actively opposed to the beliefs of other people. Jesus Christ was a Jew for His entire life, don't forget. I doubt he had a problem with Judaism. He did take issue with some of the practices of some of the high ranking Jewish leaders of the time but Judaism itself is no problem. This is an example of what I believe is crucial religious tolerance inherant to Christianity. Quote:
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Heck, as I said above, I don't even believe in Satan. I believe that evil exists, and that people are tempted to do evil things, to believe evil things, or to work against god. But I don't actually believe in a fellow with horns and looks very suspiciously like Pan who actively opposes God. I believe that evil actively opposes God, and Satan is a metaphor for this. Well, the Bible does contain information that pre-dates the time it was written. A lot of important Jewish stories and parables from the oral tradition are written in the Bible; they are very old. I don't know if anyone said "billions" but the idea of ancient things showing up in the Bible is not necessarily silly. The flood story is very old, as we discussed earlier.
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Last edited by Nurvingiel : 11-22-2008 at 10:42 PM. Reason: I forgot to answer part of the quoted text. |
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11-23-2008, 03:16 AM | #522 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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While I suppose you could see spirits as fully good or bad, it is certainly not necessarily, nor is it in accord with normative Catholic thought. I would also say it doesn't make sense, as demons are corrupted angels, and it doesn't seem very meaningful to speak of a corrupted good as being wholly evil.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
11-23-2008, 03:26 AM | #523 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-23-2008, 03:58 AM | #524 | |
Deus Ex Machina
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As for the rest. You missed my point about the abstraction of conflict that occurs in Christianity. The ideas of a God who is all Good and a Satan who is all Evil is a simplification of the conflicts of older/contemporary traditions wherein the contending gods are rarely explicitly called good or evil and the conflicts are more directly connected to human concerns. To say that Christianity is more complex simply because you've spent years studying it and haven't stopped learning is rather illogical. Christianity rose after literacy. It's development was recorded from its birth whereas the other mythologies we've been talking about were only partially recorded and originated when their worshippers still relied on oral tradition. People do spend their lives studying them, but there's only so much that's survived to be studied.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi Last edited by Willow Oran : 11-23-2008 at 05:18 AM. |
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11-23-2008, 07:16 AM | #525 | |||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Taking some characteristics from already existing gods into a figure from a younger religion, doesn't make those characters the same. This does nothing to support the idea that Satan exists outside christianity. Possibly, there are other mythological figures where the comparison is more favourable for your idea, but not these. Quote:
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11-23-2008, 02:31 PM | #526 | |||||||||||
Elf Lord
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The article did, in fact, cite four sources for its various information. It had a couple citations from the Hesiod, and some of the points you appear to be questioning come from: ^ W. Porzig, "Illuyankas und Typhon", Kleinasiatische Forschung I.3 (1930) pp 379-86. Typhon's association with evil is also apparent (if his war with the gods is not enough) from a look at Typhon's offspring: Quote:
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As for the crucifixion of Jesus, the point in time where our God smote the head of the serpent, this is as deeply entwined with human affairs as it is possible to get. So I don't agree with your point at all. The battles of the ancient gods did represent order vs. chaos, and I already described how that is deeply ingrained in the scriptural battle between God and the devil. Thus the focus of the battles is the same. The connection to agriculture cycles also is not a disconnection from Christianity, as Christianity would easily see the agricultural cycles as typological references to the battle between Jesus and the devil. If a battle is over "good" and "evil," while I agree with you that this is to a significant extent abstract (though also closely entwined with many of the most important decisions we ever make), that does not make it less complex in any way. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-23-2008, 02:39 PM | #527 | |
The Ñoldóran
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11-23-2008, 03:55 PM | #528 | ||
Deus Ex Machina
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Wikipedia is usually recommended only as a jumping off point, and that only because it does sometimes have useful citations. Since you chose to go with that questionable source you ought to have included those citations from the first.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
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11-23-2008, 04:15 PM | #529 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
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You don't "know." Nothing on Earth can be "known." You must believe. But we know the foolishness of reliance on the fallible from the innumerable human differences on what is good and right, and what is not. Thus we ought to have faith in what we believe to be infallible, rather than faith in what we know to be fallible: our own human judgment. We must escape reliance on humanity, with all its errors, and we must have faith in what we believe to be infallible, submitting to it our reasoning and foolish human weaknesses and relying on it for true knowledge. God is perfect. He can be trusted. Humanity is imperfect and cannot be.
Then we are relying on our human instincts and reasoning. However, if we supplant the infallible standard with the fallible standard of our own personal human reasoning, we have no way of knowing whether we're right or all those millions of people with different opinions are. Thus we are lost in a wilderness of errors by separating ourselves from the infallible standard. Quote:
You have grown up in an environment where God's truth is imperfectly revealed, for you, if I understand correctly, have not been brought up to rely on what you believe to be infallible. You have grown up in quite a liberal environment, a modern environment with modern beliefs, in which it is customary to have faith in human understanding rather than receiving human understanding through faith in infallible understanding. Your environment has shaped you. It has taught you to be "moral," what has been seen by Christians for 2,000 years to be immoral, and to rely on yourself and the beliefs of our culture rather than on infallible truth. Thus you rely on what was not, what is always changing, and what cannot be known with certainty. You're relying on humanity. Which is entirely untrustworthy as a place to rely on, as we can see from the great changability and diversity of its opinions and understanding, regarding ethics. It is reliance on nothing. We must rely on what we believe to be infallible, on God, not on men or ourselves, if we wish to belong to God. Quote:
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Salvation, and unity with God, indeed, perfection of unity with virtue, is all tied to the cross. All Christianity is grounded on the cross. But the cross is pointless if it is only for "Christians," and people would be saved anyway without it, for the meaning of the cross is that Jesus died to save the world. 1 John 4:14 says, "And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world." Savior of the world, not just of Christians, and the meaning of His being as "Savior" is that without Him, we would not be saved, but would die in our sins. And according to John 3:36, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." And John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." The belief that the Christianity is right for Christians and Hinduism right for Hindus and Islam right for Muslims, etc. etc., is a belief that comes from modern culture and from humanity. Thus it is a fallible understanding. It does not even confess itself to be infallible, but readily is professed to be a human view rather than one that is infallibly revealed. Thus it is not to be given faith if it contradicts what we believe to be infallible, the faith God revealed. Quote:
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I disagree with you about Satan being a metaphor . . . but given that you think of him as a metaphor for evil, how do you think Jesus can "love" him? Does God love evil? If some robber stole from a bank, would God "love" that act, because he loves evil? Quote:
Ex. 22:18; Lev. 19:26,31,20:6,27; 1 Sam. 15:23a; 2 Kings 23:24; IChron. 10:13; Is. 2:6, 8:19-20, 47:13-14; Ez.13:20-23; Dan. 2:27-28, 5:15-17; Acts 13:7-10a, 16:16-18; Gal. 5:19-20; Rev. 22:15. The practice of magic, where its powers are real rather than fraudulent, is considered to be from Satan. The worship of gods other than the one true God is also considered to be idolatry, which is part of the domain of Satan. Though Pagans are not necessarily "particularly" associated with Satan, one could say. Idolatry has the spiritual meaning of anything one views more highly, or is more devoted to, than one is toward God. Thus there are a vast number of people guilty of "idolatry" who don't worship false gods in the normal sense we might think of "idolatry." They might love money, or their spouses, or their families, or fame, or entertainment, above everything (including God), and that makes it their "god" that they worship. They also can sometimes become spiritually enslaved to such things. So idolatry extends much further than Paganism alone. Also, "magic" extends far beyond Pagan witches or wizards. There are many who practice "magic" in other faiths, including Christianity. A number of people who view themselves as Christians actually wield powers from the devil. Paganism does not equal Satan, though. To the extent that it disagrees with Christianity, it is not true, and is often dangerous. The same is true of all belief systems that deviate from Christianity. I definitely would not particularly single out Paganism. I've described above some of what I believe to be its faults, but these are not confined to Paganism. Sin and error spread so much wider than that. Quote:
I'd like to really encourage you to carefully consider the need of humanity for infallibility. You said yourself that you do not know what is true. How contradictory this is, to your decision to trust in your own human judgment, in spite of the fact that it contradicts the human judgment of so many millions! If millions of people contradict one another on ethics, human judgment is altogether unreliable as our principle guide. It is tempting to make ourselves into our own personal highest guides to the meaning of morality, rather than relying on what our faith teaches God has revealed infallibly. But it is futile, as we can see from the great diversity of contradictory religious opinions, and it is dangerous, as we can see from the host of immoral actions people have justified in the name of religion, and from the fact that many people view our perspectives or behaviors on many issues to be immoral. Thus we have to rely on the infallible. The fallible is like sand. There are millions of people, like millions of grains of sand, separate in their judgment, with their own private opinions that contradict one another, all separate. Jesus taught that the man who builds his house on the "sand" suffers the destruction of that house when the flood comes. Therefore, He urged, build your house on the rock! Believers who are united in faith in the infallible are like that rock, for they are fused rather than separate. They are one, not scattered like the grains of sand. They also trust in the infallible, which is a rock, eternal and stable, rather than shifting sand that changes wherever you walk. Without the infallible, we can reasonably trust nothing at all and lie in the utter darkness of human uncertainty.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-23-2008, 04:27 PM | #530 |
Elf Lord
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I don't personally see anything more wrong with "intolerance" toward wrong moral beliefs than there is wrong with a math professor who contradicts his incorrect students, so that they can come to the right conclusions and become more talented. You disagree with many of the views I've expressed in this thread. How intolerant . I don't have a problem with the intolerance of disagreement that everyone shares. I was just taking an opportunity to pinion the hypocritical worthlessness of the modern "tolerance" ethic.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2008 at 04:34 PM. |
11-23-2008, 04:39 PM | #531 | |
The Ñoldóran
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Wow, Lief. Just. . .wow.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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11-23-2008, 05:13 PM | #532 |
Deus Ex Machina
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I'm with Curufin, Lief. Your arguments have been sounding more like sermons than contributions to an intellectual discussion. It really takes the enjoyment out of debating.
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi |
11-23-2008, 05:17 PM | #533 |
The Ñoldóran
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And I second what Willow has to say. It's impossible to have an intellectual debate with you, because you refuse to step outside your tiny, very narrow box and consider other possibilities.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
11-23-2008, 05:31 PM | #534 | |||
Elf Lord
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Willow Oran, I'm not altogether sure I understand the point of some of your comments in your last post. For instance: Quote:
But I don't understand what this has to do with our discussion . . . my point was that when I look at myths, I look for what they believed to be true back then, rather than for what is really true. That is an easier task than looking at the myths for what is really true, the task you seem to be engaged in. But it's all that's necessary to understand the devil figures we're talking about. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2008 at 05:42 PM. |
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11-23-2008, 05:37 PM | #535 | ||
Elf Lord
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I'm sorry my responses don't seem to you or Curufin "intellectual."
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-23-2008 at 05:45 PM. |
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11-23-2008, 05:42 PM | #536 | |
The Ñoldóran
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And no, you haven't said "you're going to hell," but you've said my beliefs are influenced by Satan, which to me is an equal thought.
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Then Celegorm no more would stay, And Curufin smiled and turned away... ~The Lay of Leithian |
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11-23-2008, 06:13 PM | #537 | ||
Deus Ex Machina
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By looking for textual evidence that can be supported by archeological evidence we can piece together a much clearer picture of the origin culture to inform us as to how sacred these stories actually were, how worship might have taken place, who was in charge of it, what about the culture made this religion true for them... We can't know what those cultures believed to be true unless we know how true the culture presented through the stories is historically. It's a bit of a frustrating paradox, but that's how it is. Finding parallels between mythologies is a specific school of thought, and it's one that should be approached with caution because it does tend to just look at the stories and assume them to be past belief systems without trying to put them into cultural or historical context. Does that help you to understand where I'm coming from with my arguments? Regarding the citation issue: I know it's tempting to be a bit lazier because this is a recreational discussion and online, but I feel it's disrespectful to all participants to not be as careful here as we would in a paper we planned to turn-in/publish. Also, I can't find the Porzig article except as a citation. Have you read it yourself? And if so, do you know if it's available to read as an e-text or could you describe in detail just what it is? It looks interesting and I'd like to know more about it. Quote:
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"5. Plain Rings with RUNES on the inside. Avoid these like the PLAGUE.-Diana Wynne Jones Tough Guide To FantasyLand ...it's not much of a show if somebody doesn't suffer, and preferably at length. Suffering is beautiful in any case, and so is anguish; but as for loathing, and bitterness... I don't think they belong on the stage at all. - Isabella, I Gelosi Last edited by Willow Oran : 11-23-2008 at 06:26 PM. |
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11-23-2008, 06:16 PM | #538 | |
Elf Lord
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I also see all religions as influenced by God, in varying degrees. That includes Paganism. Pagans hold to lots of beliefs that are true. There is truth and there is lie in virtually every religion, and the "lie" part can be logically proven through the fact that they have so many contradictions. It's just that I believe that in this unpleasant situation of human fallibility distinguishing what is right, God unveiled the totality of truth infallibly, for the benefit of mankind. So I see glory above our own errors and beyond it. As for my feeling so sure what I believe is true, something you criticize . . . the explanation for this is found in my background. The reason for it is in the way I came to know God in Protestantism, and felt His guidance to the Catholic Church. I fill pages and pages of Entmoot's threads with reasons why I feel so sure. I've been doing that to Entmoot for years. My spiritual journal in my home computer has hundreds of pages of spiritual experiences, chronicling how I believe God has acted in my life up to now, and outside that journal I could cite vast, vast arrays of evidences I find convincing. There is a lot of reason why I feel so sure. I am not "sure of myself," though. In fact, I dislike sureness of self, or the reliance on the self as the final arbiter for the self on the nature and meaning of knowledge and morality. To me, this kind of presumption appears to be arrogance, especially in view of the vast number of contradictory, differing human beliefs in the world. I am not sure of myself, but I do feel "sure of the Catholic Church." And I feel "sure of Jesus Christ," God bless Him. For many reasons. I'm sorry you find this sureness offensive. It is the result of life experiences and study. But I promise you that I carefully, to the best of my ability, think through the logic and basis of everything that you, and others who disagree with me, say.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-23-2008, 06:33 PM | #539 | |||||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-23-2008, 06:49 PM | #540 | ||
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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