12-23-2003, 05:33 AM | #521 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Two letters from the times of the Early Christians:
"The Epistle of St. Ignatius to St. John the Apostle Ignatius, and the brethren who are with him, John the holy presbyter. We are deeply grieved at thy delay in strengthening us by thy addresses and consolations; thy absence be prolonged, it will disappoint many of us. Hasten, then, to come, for we believe it is expedient. There are also many of our women here, who are desirous to see Mary of Jesus, and wish day by day to run off from us to you, that they may meet with her, and touch those breasts of hers which nourished the Lord Jesus, and may inquire of her respecting some rather secret matters. But Salome also, whom thou lovest, who stayed with her five months at Jerusalem, and some other well-known persons, relate that she is full of all graces and all virtues, after the manner of a virgin, fruitful in virtue and grace. And, as they report, she is cheerful in persecutions and afflictions, free from murmuring in the midst of penury and want, grateful to those that injure her, and rejoices when exposed to troubles; she sympathizes with the wretched and the afflicted as sharing in their afflictions, and is not slow to come to their assistance. Moreover, she shines forth gloriously as contending in the fight of faith against the pernicious conflicts of vicious principles or conduct. She is the lady of our new religion and the handmaid among the faithful in all works of piety. She is indeed devoted to the humble, and she humbles herself more devotedly than the devoted, and is wonderfully magnified by all, while at the same time she suffers detraction from the Scribes and Pharisees. Besides these points, many relate to us other things regarding her. We do not, however, go so far as to believe all in every particular; nor do we mention such to thee. But, as we are informed by those who are worthy of credit, there is in Mary the mother of Jesus an angelic purity of nature allied with the nature of humanity. And such reports as these have greatly excited our emotions, and urge us eagerly to desire a sight of this (if it be lawful so to speak) heavenly prodigy and most sacred marvel. But do thou in haste comply with this our desire; and fare thou well. Amen. The Epistle of Ignatius to the Virgin Mary Her friend Ignatius to the Christ-bearing Mary. Thou oughtest to have comforted and consoled me who am a neophyte, and a disciple of thy John. For I have heard things wonderful to tell respecting thy Jesus, and I am astonished by such a report. But I desire with my whole heart to obtain information concerning the things which I have heard from thee, who wast always intimate and allied with Him, and who wast acquainted with His secrets. I have also written to thee at another time, and have asked thee concerning the same things. Fare thou well; and let the neophytes who are with me be comforted of thee, and by thee, and in thee. Amen." As for the Immaculate Conception...well, the Blessed Virgin herself appeared to a little French girl, and referred to herself as "the Immaculate Conception". Incidentally, that little French girl is now looking beautiful, her spirit having departed over a century ago. Think of it this way. What was the holiest object in the Old Testament? The Ark of the Covenant. Why was the Ark of the Covenant holy? Because of what it contained (the Rod of Aaron, the first priest, manna, and the Word of God enscribed in stone), and Who rested there (the shekinah glory, the Holy Spirit). The Blessed Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. She is holy because of what she contained (The body of the Eternal High Priest (rod of Aaron), the Bread of Life (manna), and the Word of God enfleshed), and Who rested upon her "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you". A link on the Immaculate Conception, after digging deep through the link I posted before. Immaculate Conception One note on this link: "The person of Jesus Christ is divine, not human" but the person of Jesus Christ is in fact both divine and human. Incidentally, the phrase "full of grace" appears one other time in the Bible, in John 1: "And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth."
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-23-2003, 05:35 AM | #522 | |||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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An article on Christ and the Church, especially the Catholic Church ceasing to be Christian. Note: the article is written from a Traditionalist viewpoint, meaning that the author certainly implies that non-Catholics cannot be saved. This is not the teaching of the Church. However, despite the fact that they are a schismatic sect, I don't remember anything else in the article contrary to the teachings of the Church. BTW, re: G. K. Chesterton: Out of curiosity, why did you mention his quote about tradition a while ago? Quote:
Teaching Church Matthew 18:17 "And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector." Sounds pretty authoritative to me. This passage is referring to sins not doctrine; but, IMO, authority is authority is authority. Acts 20:28 "Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood." What is to shepherd? To guide. How can a Church which does not, when it comes right down to it, have any authority, guide? In Ephesians 5, " just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish." "A glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle...holy and without blemish." Sounds more likely to be right than I am. 1 Tim 3: 15 "but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." The Pillar and Ground of the Truth sounds like something that we ought to listen to, doesn't it? Quote:
In slightly related news (I think we talked a bit about this a few days ago), I last night had the singular experience of watching Braveheart in Russian. o.O
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-23-2003, 05:37 AM | #523 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Whew, finally got all that done.
*wonders if this is the first time he's had four posts in a row*
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-23-2003, 07:43 AM | #524 | |
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12-23-2003, 01:52 PM | #525 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Who wants to go through and check all 6-some thousand?
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-23-2003, 02:13 PM | #526 | |
Banned
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12-23-2003, 03:23 PM | #527 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thanks for the posts, Gwai. I can tell you spent a lot of time one them. I disagree with many of your points, and don't wish to get into any more detail at this time. My main concern is that people are aware that not all Christians believe what the Catholic church believes. I might get into more detail later; don't know... but it's just getting too long to comment on each point, and as I said before, I continue to disagree with many of them.
But I still think we agree on the main (to me) points - God is our creator; mankind chose to sin; this sin rightly separates us from a holy and perfect God; Jesus voluntarily came to earth and suffered and died on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins; those who choose to believe all of the above, and take action on the belief such that they make Jesus Lord of their lives (IOW, it's not just a meaningless "word" belief), have the relationship restored, because the debt of their sin is paid, and they will be in heaven for all eternity with God.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
12-23-2003, 04:47 PM | #528 | ||||||
Elven Warrior
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I think that I’m saying the same thing that Gwaimir is saying regarding baptism. I think, though, that part of the problem here is a general misunderstanding: baptism isn’t just a ritual that acts out someone’s faith. Baptism is much more radical than that. Baptism puts to death the old person, and gives life to a new person: Or are you unaware that we who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were indeed buried with him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might live in newness of life. (Rom. 6:3-4) Baptism, then, affects a real change... it gives birth to a new person. Of course, that new person, even though they are equipped through baptism with the weapons and armor to fend off the evil one and the powers and principalities of this world of darkness, do not, of course, have to co-operate with this grace, and, in fact, I know of only one person to live her whole life entirely co-operating with this grace. The rest of us fail--some, like me, more than others. There are, however, some who live lives almost completely in co-operation with this grace, and are recognized by the Church as saints. --Dave
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
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12-23-2003, 05:42 PM | #529 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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After reading your post, Guillaume, I see more than ever how much I disagree with some basics of RC doctrine . I see that some of the differences are with terminology, but I disagree with the underlying things, too.
I'll touch on a few points, but basically I'd just like to point out, as Valandil did, that there are Christians that do NOT belong to the RC church, and disagree with some of the doctrines the RC church teaches. Quote:
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Thanks for your long answer, Dave, but I must say that I disagree with much of it I think many Catholics are Christians (or to be more exact, since we seem to have somewhat different definitions - many Catholics have a saving belief in Jesus that means among other things that they will be in heaven). I really think the RC church has gone wrong in many areas, but God is stronger than any particular church, and can bring people to Him despite a particular church's shortcomings. And His true church is made up of believers worldwide, and not tied to any particular worldly church structure. But I still think that in the very minimal basics, Catholics and other Christians agree. What do you think of my "basics" I listed a post or so up?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! Last edited by RĂan : 12-23-2003 at 05:47 PM. |
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12-23-2003, 06:16 PM | #530 |
Elven Warrior
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The Catholic Church’s teaching is based on the practice of the Church since the first century. Much of what I’ve said you can read for yourself in the Didiache, Saint Ignatius of Antioch, etc. all of which was written in the first century and reflects the earliest practices. I’ve stayed away from making statements from dogmas defined later. What you are calling extrapolation is actually the earliest practices of the Christian Church, practices that Catholics and Eastern Orthodox weren't willing to give up at the time when the canon of Scripture was formulated, and are hardly going to give up today. Scripture is only half the story, the other half is Tradition, the practice of the Church from which Scripture, itself, came. We don’t re-invent the wheel, nor do we feel a pressing need to re-invent the wheel.
In reference to infant baptism, however, you should really look at the Hebrew practice of circumcision that parallels very well infant baptism. In short, just because something is not explicitely stated in Scripture, doesn't mean it was not part the practice of the Church, or that it wasn't practiced even before the Scriptures were written. A history book about the United States, for example, is hardly equiped to cover all aspects of that history, nor is it capable of explaining every single practice in American society. Only by looking at the whole picture, being aware that Scripture is limited by those who wrote it, and by those for whom it was written, can it be placed in useful context. If you are saying that if its not in Scripture, then its not real, then my question for you is: before Scripture, what did Christians base their beliefs? Edit: this is the crux of the problem, btw: the place of Scripture in doctrine. I find it kind of frustrating any argument that says, "well, that's not in the bible," only because it doesn't really say anything. There is a lot that is not in the bible, not the least of which is the notion that God is a Trinity, Father, Son and HS, nor does the bible say that Jesus is both human and divine. If we are to accept that is a viable argument, we must be willing to admit there is nothing wrong with abortion, contraception, capital punishment (which, btw, is supported by the bible), genocide (something else that is supported by many passages in the bible), etc., etc., etc... If the bible is the only thing, then it comes down to how each individual person interprets it. That is extremely dangerous. I'll stick with Ignatius of Antioch who wrote at the close of the first century, that a personal interpretation of Holy Writ is illegitimate.
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 12-23-2003 at 06:34 PM. |
12-23-2003, 08:33 PM | #531 | |
Fëanáro's Fire Mistress
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there is only ONE absolute belief about God. so there can only be ONE true interpretation of Scripture. |
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12-24-2003, 12:51 AM | #532 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Hmmm... I think when we look closely at how our definitions differ, we're agreeing with each other more than we appear to be on the surface. There are particular doctrines that it seems we just are not going to agree on, but it has been very interesting to me to hear (read) a good summation of the Catholic viewpoint on these things... even if I'm not to the point of agreement, I understand quite a bit better.
I think this is all quite helpful - just so we're careful that we don't put each other in the position of actually defending our views. We can disagree, but maintain respect and not 'attack' (thereby bringing in the defensive posturing). And I hope I haven't done so, btw. If I have, I apologize for it. Especially now at Christmastime... I think I'm gonna re-post the one I put up the other day! Last edited by Valandil : 12-24-2003 at 12:54 AM. |
12-24-2003, 12:54 AM | #533 |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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You are cordially invited to: A BIRTHDAY CELEBRATION!!!
Guest of Honor: Jesus Christ Date: Every day. Traditionally, December 25 but He's always around, so the date is flexible.... Time: Whenever you're ready. (Please don't be late, though, or you'll miss out on all the fun!) Place: In your heart. He'll meet you there. (You'll hear Him knock.) Attire: Come as you are... grubbies are okay. He'll be washing our clothes anyway. He said something about new white robes and crowns for everyone who stays till the last. Tickets: Admission is free. He's already paid for everyone... (He says you wouldn't have been able to afford it anyway...It cost Him everything He had. But you do need to accept the ticket!! Refreshments: New wine, bread, and a far-out drink He calls "Living Water," followed by a supper that promises to be out of this world! Gift Suggestions: Your life. He's one of those people who already has everything else. (He's very generous in return though. Just wait until you see what He has for you!) Entertainment: Joy, Peace, Truth, Light, Life, Love, Real Happiness, Communion with God, Forgiveness, Miracles, Healing, Power, Eternity in Paradise, Contentment, and much more! (All "G" rated, so bring your family and friends.) R.S.V.P. Very Important! He must know ahead so He can reserve a spot for you at the table. Also, He's keeping a list of His friends for future reference. He calls it the "Lamb's Book of Life." Party being given by His Kids (that's us!!)! Hope to see you there! For those of you whom I will see at the party, share this with someone today! |
12-24-2003, 01:00 AM | #534 |
Elven Warrior
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Val,
Save some space in the back for the Catholics
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
12-24-2003, 03:51 AM | #535 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-24-2003, 06:00 AM | #536 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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12-24-2003, 05:57 PM | #537 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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You can sit next to me, Guillaume, if you would like to - I don't care what church you belong to
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
12-24-2003, 06:03 PM | #538 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But that's just MHO , and I wish you all a Merry Christmas! I'll be back in a few days or so.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá Ă«?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Ăž Ă° Ăź ® ç ĂĄ ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lĂłmĂ«! AurĂ« entuluva! |
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12-24-2003, 07:16 PM | #539 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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No, Rian. The Immaculate Conception is explicitly stated. Just not in the Bible. But then again, there are many doctrines which are not explicitly stated in the Bible, such as the Trinity, the Dual Nature of Christ, the Age of Accountability, the canon of Scripture, the Rapture, the Invisibility of the Church, Revival, Eternal Security, and many more. Out of curiosity, which of these do you (that includes other Protestants) believe in?
I think it would be "was or was not Immaculately Conceived". Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-24-2003, 08:41 PM | #540 |
Elven Warrior
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Merry Christmas all, and Happy New Year. I'm moving on Saturday, so I'll be away for awhile. Our discussions here have been great, and God bless all of you!
--Dave
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
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