Classical Music II

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Glóin the Dark

Thanks for the welcome, Hector. I suspect much of the difficulty with No. 10 is that it begins with a long, slow, austere and gloomy first movement, which may be difficult to digest. I always found the remaining three movements easy to get to grips with (and very crowd-pleasing), though. I think I had an advantage in that the first time I heard the symphony (in a BBC Radio broadcast of a Proms performance) it was preceded by an interval programme explaining the coded musical references, especially the mysterious "Elmira" motif which dominates the third movement...

I hope you stickm around. It's nice to have someone as knowledgable as you apparently are.

Part of it is the slow first movement, you're right. But once I listened to No.10 all the way through, I was also able to listen to No.7 all the way through. No.7, by the way, has a great moment in the slow movement where Shostakovich brings in one of his "trots," and it sounds a bit Khachaturian-ish.

You should try Webern's Symphony, if you haven't already. It lasts less than ten minutes, but it's an exquisitely crafted gem - I defy even the most fervent anti-serialist to deny that it sounds, at the very least, quite agreeable!

I'll do that. Apparently collecting all of Webern's works isn't too expensive since they fit on less than three full discs. I believe Deutsche Gramophone has the "complete" set available.


Just curious, Gloin, have you ever posted on the Classical board on Amazon.com?

[Glóin the Dark]

It's nice to have someone as knowledgable as you apparently are

You're too kind. I'm afraid the limits of my knowledge will become apparent all too soon.

once I listened to No.10 all the way through, I was also able to listen to No.7 all the way through. No.7, by the way, has a great moment in the slow movement where Shostakovich brings in one of his "trots," and it sounds a bit Khachaturian-ish.

That (with the recent references to Bartok) brings to mind a section from Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra - from one of the two shorter movements - where he appears to be mocking the recurrent theme from the first movement of the Leningrad Symphony, which he allegedly found intolerably banal. I have to admit that he had a point, although the theme is strangely hypnotic and quite chilling. (In the symphony, that is, not the concerto. )

Apparently collecting all of Webern's works isn't too expensive since they fit on less than three full discs. I believe Deutsche Gramophone has the "complete" set available.

That would most likely be the Boulez set, which is what I have. It's probably quite expensive though.

Just curious, Gloin, have you ever posted on the Classical board on Amazon.com?

I haven't, actually. You?

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by Glóin the Dark

You're too kind. I'm afraid the limits of my knowledge will become apparent all too soon.

Nah

That (with the recent references to Bartok) brings to mind a section from Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra - from one of the two shorter movements - where he appears to be mocking the recurrent theme from the first movement of the Leningrad Symphony, which he allegedly found intolerably banal. I have to admit that he had a point, although the theme is strangely hypnotic and quite chilling. (In the symphony, that is, not the concerto. )

I've never found banality to be the worst crime in music. Admittedly there are some passages in Shosty that are a bit pot-banging. But hey, I enjoy that stuff.

That would most likely be the Boulez set, which is what I have. It's probably quite expensive though.

Yes, I just checked my Gramophone Guide.

I haven't, actually. You?

I did. But I stopped because there were too many people who made an argumenmt out of everything, and also because the number of silly topics grew while the quality of discussion dropped.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

I've never found banality to be the worst crime in music.

Are you kidding? It is absolutely speaking the worst crime in any art form.

[hectorberlioz]

Let me put it this way, "banality" a la Britney Spears is unforgivable. Percieved banality a la Shostakovich is great.

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by Glóin the Dark

Glad to be here, Comrade!

Glad to hear it, Comrade. :P

Hahaha.

Anyway...I picked up this CD that was supposedly Vivaldi's Four Seasons from the library.
Now, as I'm sure you all know, I'm a big jazz fan, but when I go to pick up a CD that is supposed to be classical, it had better be classical. But no-o. It's some sort of weird French jazz mix that is hardly reminiscent of the real thing.

So my advice is: if it says Vivaldi's Four Seasons in the same font on the cover of the Boston Pops' album Pop's Stoppers (excellent album by the way) and it's by some French guy and his trio, then don't waste your time.

[hectorberlioz]

More 'jazzing" of the classics, eh? That never seems to come off well.

Anyways, right now I'm writing reviews for CDs to put up on my new CD Review blog. I'll let you guys know when I have it up.

[trolls' bane]

Originally Posted by hectorberlioz

More 'jazzing" of the classics, eh? That never seems to come off well.

Anyways, right now I'm writing reviews for CDs to put up on my new CD Review blog. I'll let you guys know when I have it up.

No. Especially when it's terrible sound quality to boot.
It may surprise some of you, but I also am re-developing my old respect for rock & roll. I say this because I am NOT fond of cross-disciplinary music if it does not involve an orchestra or a big band, and certainly not if it tries to imitate or copy a classical musician. People always try to get me to like rock by saying "Oh, they use a lot of Beethoven scores in such-and-such a song" or something along those lines, and then can't understand why I don't like it. (In that particular case, it was more based on principle: I felt that Beethoven was overrated and "of course they made music with his scores!")

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Does anyone know, did Janet Baker's voice change at some point? I've seen a number of references to her as a contralto, but I think she's generally considered to be a mezzo, isn't she?

[Tessar]

Sorry, I really don't know of any recordings that Phillipe is in of operas... I know he did... I think it was called 'Aggripina' or something close to that. Other than that I'm not aware of what else he was in aside from some bits from one french opera that you can find on youtube.

I believe Janet Baker was a low mezzo, but some times people will call a mezzo an alto if she can handle some of those roles, which I -believe- she could... didn't she sing a couple of things considered more suitable for altos? I don't know that much about her.



But also, potentially, if she was a low mezzo anyways her voice probably darkened and dropped just a little with age, so potentially she became more contralto-like near the end of her career. For instance I'm a light lyric baritone at the moment, but it's more likely that I'll be considered something like a bass baritone when I get to be about 60, if by God's will I'm still singing then . Mainly because right now I -have- all of those low notes, but they're not comfortable at all--likely they'll become more comfortable as I pass 55-60 and I'll lose some of my upper register.

[hectorberlioz]

"Agrippina" is a Handel opera.

[Tessar]

Thanks--yes, that would be it. Good eye.



Oh, also something I forgot to mention:

I may be a music student, but Hector has been collecting music for far longer than I've been studying . My interest in music didn't start till about 4 years ago, and then I wasn't seriously interested in opera for a year or two longer, and it's only recently that I've been interested at all in orchestral/instrumental music.

He actually is quite likely to know a good deal more than I do as far as works/composers/titles go.

But yes I DO know a thing or two about counter-tenors, if I may say so myself .

[hectorberlioz]

I'll make a deal with you Tess, I defer to you when it comes to opera singers etc...and you defer to me as the Supreme Expert Of All Time when it comes to classical consumerism .

[hectorberlioz]

The Top-Ten non-symphony Symphonies

This list is about works called "symphony," but which go beyond regular symphonic form. First however, I should explain what a typical symphony is. Joseph Haydn is called "the father of the symphony," not because he invented the form, but because he perfected it. A typical Haydn symphony is in four movements. The first movement is in sonata form. The following movements are typically a slow movement, a minuet (or medium-paced) third movement, and a fast-paced final fourth movement. Beethoven replaced Haydn's "minuet" with his "Scherzo," and most composers who follow the 'regular' format write a scherzo. Dvorak, in his symphonies, supplanted the scherzo in favor of a "Furiant," a Czech dance form. With a few innovations and changes here and there, most of these symphonies hold true to a perfected, clear-cut "form" that is typical for a symphony.

You can --arguably-- trace two lines of musical heirs from Beethoven. Schumann, Mendelssohn, Brahms, and Dvorak are the most famous symphonists who looked to Beethoven, Mozart, and Haydn.

Another line of composers however, looked to Beethoven's innovations and took it upon themselves to take musical form in different directions. Berlioz, Liszt, Mahler, and Richard Strauss are the most prominent examples.

That brings us to a genre that I call "non-symphony symphony," a work that takes on symphonic proportions and even adheres to many of its rules, is called 'symphony,' but which ultimately is something very different.

and just as a side-note: there's no rule that says traditional symphonies are better than non-traditional ones. Both sides contain masterpieces and duds in equal amount. But what I've done is gathered the TOP TEN of the non-traditional side.

I hope you enjoy this list and my commentary. Please feel free to add your own comments. I would love reading feedback!

#1. all of Hector Berlioz's symphonies
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Berlioz wrote four symphonies.

The (a)Symphonie fantastique is the most famous. Among its out-of-the-mainstream features: it is in five movements*, it is loosely programmatic, and the orchestrations contains many instrumental innovations. For example: Berlioz asks the violins to play with the back of their bow in the last movement.

(b)Harold in Italy was the second work here that Berlioz wrote, and it was also called a symphony, even though it was intended as a concerto for viola to be performed by Paganini. It resembles the "Fantastique" in that it is programmatic.

(c)Paganini's monetary gift to Berlioz for "Harold" allowed Berlioz to write Romeo & Juliette, which Berlioz called a "Symphonie dramatique." It employs soloists, a chorus, and orchestra. Some have called it a "cantata," while others say it borders on Oratorio or even Opera. Yet the work is not an opera or cantata because it has long sections for pure orchestra. Berlioz's idea was not opera, but rather a use of vocals for expressing the ideas that a orchestra by itself might not do as cogently. He was taking Beethoven's Ninth to the next level: not just using chorus and soloists, but infusing them into the grain of the entire work.

(d)And lastly there is the Symphonie funebre et triomphale, a patriotic work that calls for huge wind-band and percussion, as well as strings and chorus. Incidentally, this music made an appearance in the Les Miserables film starring Liam Neeson and Geoffrey Rush. All of these works are extremely original and enjoyable. I can't recommend them enough.

*Beethoven's sixth symphony is also in five movements.

#2. Franz Liszt's "Faust" and "Dante" Symphonies
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Taking his cue from Berlioz's descriptive Symphonie fantastique, Liszt perfected the idea of the symphonic poem, a work of music inspired by and/or meant to represent a work of visual or literary art. These descriptive works started out as "symphonies," as Liszt called his first symphonic poem. However, when it comes to the "Faust" and "Dante" Symphonies, Liszt is taking us not only farther from Symphony, but farther from mere "symphonic poem." The 'Faust Symphony' is made up of three musical character portraits after Goethe's "Faust" poem. Rather than create three seperate tunes for Faust, Gretchen, and Mephistopheles, Liszt writes just one. This theme takes on the attitudes of each character's psyche. It's a masterful work, as is the "Dante" symphony though that is a touch more "splashy." Both are very much recommended.

#3. Olivier Messiaen's "Turangalila-symphonie"
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This just about takes the cake for being the most indulgent non-symphony symphony ever composed. Messiaen was inspired by Indian (of India) music, and this work is suffused with many of that culture's musical idiosyncrasies. It sounds, however, very French nonetheless (Mari said so ). Obviously what Messiaen meant by "symphony" was not Haydnian. It's far closer to the "togetherness," which is also fits with the work's message of life and love/'turangalila'. This isn't for those who enjoy lucid music...but then, none of these works are.

#4. Karl Goldmark's "Rustic Wedding" Symphony
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This is definitely not a symphony. I've heard it called a "large suite," and that seems to be accurate. The music isn't exactly as small-scale as a suite, though. In any case, this music is very enjoyable. A lot of people dislike it for being sappy and "light." Their dislike may also stem from the fact that they sympathize with Mahler's dislike of Goldmark's music. I however don't side with them. While this music is definitely not "serious" music, it is also not sappy. I prefer to think of it as heart-warming. The music moves along very comfortably, melodic but not jarringly sweet. Recommended for a rainy day in the armchair.

#5. Gustav Mahler's Symphony No.8 "...of a Thousand"
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This work was advertised (to Mahler's chagrin) as the "Symphony of a Thousand." The music alternates between orchestral, chorus, and full-fledged arias for soloists. But this music is very rewardin, and when heard with the full forces of 1,000 + performers it is ever more exciting than with the mere(!) 500 used in many recordings. Who could resist this work for its sheer power of numbers? As far as being a non-symphony, this work has been called a semi-cantata. As far as I'm concerned, it is in the line of Berlioz's Romeo & Juliette, integrating vocals and orchestra into one instrument. I'd like to jump-start off that statement to explain what makes this different from an opera, which also infuses orchestra and human voice? Simply that, in opera the voice is more important and is subservient to the vocals.

#6. Havergal Brian's Symphony No.1 "Gothic"
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Like Mahler's 8th, this work calls for the forces of 1,000 plus performers. The numbers are mostly chorus, though this work has an orchestral section of 200. That's a large number even by orchestra-size numbers. Unlike the Mahler work, the first three movements of this work are purely orchestral. But like Mahler, the composer Havergal Brian divided the work into two parts. The second part is where the gigantic chorus comes in, singing Brian's setting of the Te Deum. This work actually comes fairly close to being in regular symphonic form, but its huge proportions make it something else entirely. I frankly prefer Brian's way of writing for One Thousand People than Mahler's way. You may or may not agree, but either you have to investigate this.

#7. Jean Sibelius' "Kullervo" Symphony
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Like the Berlioz, Mahler, and Brian works, this symphony straddles the line or takes the idea of 'symphony' further, using human vocals. What is characteristic to Sibelius' piece is that he alternates between purely orchestral and vocal movements. This was Siblius' breakthrough work as a major composer, and it bears the astounding opus number of seven. Some people call this work a cantata, some call it a "tone poem". Either way, it certainly fits snugly into my made-up category of "non-symphony symphony." This isn't just a great work in that genre, this is one of the greatest works of all time. Mandatory listening.

#8. Leonard Bernstein's Symphony No.2 "Age of Anxiety"
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This is really a symphony-concerto-ballet. Lenny Bernstein loved messing with genres, as can be witnessed in his "Kaddish" Symphony where he uses straight-up narration in communicating his feelings and thoughts. In this work however, Bernstein goes for a danceful, rhythmic, and very tuneful vein with a prominent part for piano. In fact, the piano is almost soloistic. It's also very much for "our time" (Lenny's time) as all good works should be. Why Bernstein called this a "symphony" can be argued at length. My guess is that he thought it to be more than a "Piano Concerto" (which it has been called) since it seeks to express the feelings of an "age of anxiety." This is top-notch stuff, very much recommended.

#9. Richard Strauss' "Ein Alpinesinfonie"
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Richard Strauss was very fond of Liszt's "symphonic poem" form, and he exercised his capacity in that form in such works as Don Juan, Till Eulenspiegel's Merry Pranks, Death and Transfiguration, Thus Spake Zarathustra, and lest we forget: Ein Heldenleben (A Hero's Life). Towards the end of this run of great symphonic poems, he wrote An Alpine Symphony. This is an extra-extra-extra symphonic poem that calls for a huge orchestra, including wind sheets. So while this work is definitely a symphonic poem, it also reaches symphonic heights in its ambitions. It also makes this list because the composer called it "symphony." The message of the work is Nietszchean: a 'power of the human spirit'-type climb on the Alpine mountains. But the message of the work is ultimately very generic, and it's the music that matters. A real mountain-shaker of a work.

#10. Shostakovich's Symphony No.14
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This is most definitely NOT a symphony. It's almost not even a non-symphony symphony (which begs the question: does that make it doubly-qualified to be on the list?) This is really a song-cycle. It's there for anyone to hear: one song follows the other, with chamber orchestra accompaniment. Why did Shostakovich call it a symphony? Perhaps he wanted to boost his symphony count. That might make some folks indignant, but I don't suggest it maliciously. One just wonders at these types of things. Another theory is that Shosty planned on shaping this work along the lines of his 13th Symphony, which also uses human vocals. Shostakovich admitted that once he wrote a work, he found it hard to revise. He felt he would ruin the stream of conciousness that gave birth to the original work. It's a very recommendable song-cycle, with an enjoyable amount of fury and anger. It's very dark and satirical. Not morning music by any means.

IN Conclusion, I'd like to leave you with some thoughts. This music is life-enhancing and you can show off to your friends by playing the loudest and most vulgar moments of it for them. My first recommendation goes to Berlioz, Liszt, and Messiaen. But you should investigate all of these to see for yourself. I hope you enjoyed my list, and please write me if you have any questions!

[BeardofPants]

No Wagner? Heathen.

[Mari]

Oh, I got referenced Yay!

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by BeardofPants

No Wagner? Heathen.

How could I put Wagner on the list when he wrote operas, not symphonies? *smacks Bop*. Ok, he did write ONE symphony. But that's rare, and it isn't among his masterpieces by any measure.

You're right though. He was heathen.

[hectorberlioz]

[deleted]

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Sorry, I really don't know of any recordings that Phillipe is in of operas... I know he did... I think it was called 'Aggripina' or something close to that. Other than that I'm not aware of what else he was in aside from some bits from one french opera that you can find on youtube.

Agrippina, yes, I got that. The staging and costuming were simply ridiculous (stage = moving blocks + about a dozen people in peach-coloured jumpsuits with enormous unibrows painted on slowly wandering around and striking poses) (costmes = mockery of Baroque costume; Nerone looked like a bloody barber's pole!), but musically very good. Jaroussky was of course grand; I was introduced to Veronique Gens who is quite good, and one of the basses was impressive. Well acted, too, with the exception of the singer for Ottone, who seemed to think acting beneath him.

I also just watched today Il Sant'Alesso, which was simply superb. An attempt at a re-creation of the original staging of an opera cast entirely from the papal choirs, the cast is wholly composed of men, so stay away if en travesti is too much of a turn-off for you. I admit, I was kind of dubious about that aspect, but it ended up working very, very well. Very dramatically satisfactory, a stellar cast, superbly sung and acted all around; I was most impressed with Jaroussky as Sant'Alessio, Xavier Sabata as his Madre, Terry Wey as Roma/Religione (despite the small part; also amusing is the curtsy he gives at the curtain call!), and the bass who played the demon tempting Sant'Alessio. Magnificent stage (the whole thing lit entirely by candles), gorgeous and exquisitely stylized costumes, great music of course from Christie and his Les Arts Florissants.
The opera is very old (only about 25 years younger than L'Orfeo), so it hasn't moved altogether away from medieval theatre, but the elements of that form it retains, work very well in the work as a whole. Essentially, the opera is an attempt (very successful, I think) to bring out the inherent drama of the heroes of the Church, and to show that battle in the soul can be as powerful or more so than the exploits of Hercules, and his like. In doing so, however, it is not just flatly, insipidly pious, but it looks at the story of St. Alexis in such a way as to hint at the question of whether or not he was in the right. Despite the religious nature of the piece, the smaller and more realistic scale of the story make its drama more human than that of most Baroque opera.
Musically, the work is simply scrumptious, rather wilder than later Baroque works, and coming no-where near the formulaic feel that later Baroque music can sometimes fall into. All in all, I think this opera is simply a masterpiece, and give it a 9 out of 10. The only reason it's not ten is that, due to it being such an early piece, arias are fewer and farther between than I'm used to, although the recitative is more florid than usual to make up for it. It's marvellous, though, and I'd recommend it to anyone fond of Baroque opera. If you do get it, speaking from an American location, order it from the UK amazon page; it's cheaper there than anywhere else I've found (even if you factor in the fact that, when ordering from America, you can get free shipping at dot com, but not at dot co do uk; American price is 26.99 dollars, British, with shipping, is 11.57 pounds, so somewhere around 22-23 dollars); also, since it's such a recent production, the DVD is not available in America for another 10 days. Anyway, highly recommended; if you like baroque opera, you should definitely check this out.

I believe Janet Baker was a low mezzo, but some times people will call a mezzo an alto if she can handle some of those roles, which I -believe- she could... didn't she sing a couple of things considered more suitable for altos? I don't know that much about her.

I confess, I don't really her either; she's more or less a name that I keep seeing, and which I know was among the pioneers of the Baroque revival. I've heard her sing a few things, but I know of her more than I know her.

One of the places she was billed as a contralto was in Elgar's Dream of Gerontius as the Angel, which is, actually, a mezzo role.

To make it more confusing, I just a few minutes ago saw her billed in Julius Caesar as a soprano! That was on Netflix, though, so I'll chalk it up to a well-meaning unknowing.

But also, potentially, if she was a low mezzo anyways her voice probably darkened and dropped just a little with age, so potentially she became more contralto-like near the end of her career.

Indeed, this is a fairly common occurence, but the performance of Gerontius was quite a long time ago, I think in the 50's or 60's, and she retired from opera in 1982. I would think it's rather early to become a contralto at that point, but I don't really know the details of those cases; maybe it can happen for the last 20 years of a career?

[hectorberlioz]

If anyone wants to read my amazon.com reviews, here's my profile page

http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A38KZE4XLCHFD0