Iraq

[Coney]

I'm taking a rough guess at antaganonism

[The Lady of Ithilien]

it's easy to have a knee jerk reaction to someone as evil as Saddam. However, what comes later?

There's some serious discussion among those with the strongest personal interest in the region going on about that right now: http://aei.org/iraq/iraqfront.htm (see full transcript for the 10/3 conference on planning for a post-Saddam Iraq)

Am only just beginning to read through it, as I only found it Friday thanks to an AP online article about the generals' conference on Nov. 15 (transcript not yet online). Looks interesting so far: an Federation of Iraq. Interesting idea that could work. But those four conditions outlined by Kanan Makiya are big "if's":

"1. That the government of the United States actually proceeds with its stated policy of regime change in Iraq.

"2. That the unseating of the Saddam Husain regime does not take place at the cost of large scale civilian casualties (Iraqi or Israeli) which could introduce considerable volatility and unpredictability into the political situation.

"3. That these ideas, or some variation on them, are actually adopted at a large and representative conference of the Iraqi opposition.

"4. That the Government of the United States, as the partner of the Iraqi people in liberating Iraq, sees its role in Iraq as being for the long term, for democracy and reconstruction--i.e, for nation-building. "

Re the first point, it's happening. It will happen regardless of what the UN does or does not do. The second point is the biggest problem currently; it's a valid one, and among other things, probably is the reason underlying the change in tactics signalled by the massacre Friday night in Hebron: away from individual or small-team suicide tactics to regular military assaults. It also is likely the reason Saddam will once again locate his military equipment and personnel in the middle of civilian population centers in his own country. The third point can serve to pave the way to such a necessary conference after Saddam is gone. Point four: We certainly will. That is one big reason why we're hosting such conferences right now. Also reference what my senator said about Iraq's value to the world (above).

[BeardofPants]

Eleven empty 122mm chemical warheads were discovered by the UN inspectors during an inspection of the Ukhaider Ammunition Storage Area. These bunkers were erected in the late 1990s.

http://www.dispatch.co.za/2003/01/17/foreign/MCHEM.HTM

[Dunadan]

Did the warheads have "Made in the USA" on them?

[BeardofPants]

LOL!

[Coney]

Originally posted by Dunadan
Did the warheads have "Made in the USA" on them?

hahaha

Hmm, "similar to those imported in the late '80's" and a very familiar green colour........very possibly Dunadan, very possibly..

[Sween]

Originally posted by Coney
hahaha

Hmm, "similar to those imported in the late '80's" and a very familiar green colour........very possibly Dunadan, very possibly..

Hate to say it but they are as likelt to say made in the UK. And if we do we should not fear we cannot get a train to run on time what the chanfces of getting a complicated wepon to be effective

[Coney]

Originally posted by Sween
Hate to say it but they are as likelt to say made in the UK. And if we do we should not fear we cannot get a train to run on time what the chanfces of getting a complicated wepon to be effective

Very true........that explains why the Americans keep blowing the shishkebab out of our troops with "friendly fire".........They think we are Iraqi'

*Sends memo to Blair - "make sure all UK troops wear flourescent blue uniforms, Americans have trouble distinguishing neutral colours on a battlefield.....perhaps painting the McDonalds Golden Arches on transport vehicles could be condsidered?"*

[Draken]

Originally posted by Sween
Hate to say it but they are as likelt to say made in the UK. And if we do we should not fear we cannot get a train to run on time what the chanfces of getting a complicated wepon to be effective

Nah the UK hasn't manufactured chem stuff for many a year. I think most of the British kit in the area is with the Saudis, though I think the Iranians might have a fair few Chieftains left. Maybe we should borrow them back, they seem to deal with the sand better than Challengers!

[Sween]

Originally posted by Coney
Very true........that explains why the Americans keep blowing the shishkebab out of our troops with "friendly fire".........They think we are Iraqi'

*Sends memo to Blair - "make sure all UK troops wear flourescent blue uniforms, Americans have trouble distinguishing neutral colours on a battlefield.....perhaps painting the McDonalds Golden Arches on transport vehicles could be condsidered?"*

lol!" acctually i was having a word with our MP's son down the pub telling him to say to his dad everyone is strongly against this war.

*Memo to blair* stop been Bushs lap dog. I wish our PM would grow a backbone. seriously have we ever had such a witless worm of a man leading our country

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by Coney
Very true........that explains why the Americans keep blowing the shishkebab out of our troops with "friendly fire".........They think we are Iraqi'

*Sends memo to Blair - "make sure all UK troops wear flourescent blue uniforms, Americans have trouble distinguishing neutral colours on a battlefield.....perhaps painting the McDonalds Golden Arches on transport vehicles could be condsidered?"*

You can add to that: stop testing out dodgy vaccines on the troops which haven't even been shown to work on mice at Porton Down.

And yes, Sween, you're quite right. Churchill (our "Greatest Briton") was the first to decide that it would be a grand idea to gas the unruly "primitive tribes" in the arbitrarily drawn borders of what we (Brits) decided consituted Iraq in the 1920s. The only reason he didn't do it was because they couldn't get such a weapon to work.

I don't have any illusions about British innocence here. We gave the world concentration camps, divide and rule, ethnic cleansing, economic and cultural imperialism and mass censorship. Just because others have perfected these tools doesn't make us, as a nation, any better than anyone else.

And the propaganda our so-called free press is coming out with at the moment is totally sickening.

* barfs into filing cabinet *

no cheers

d.

BTW - Bush, Gore, Blair, Thatcher: it makes no difference. Human rights take second place to big business for all of them.

[Sween]

Originally posted by Dunadan
You can add to that: stop testing out dodgy vaccines on the troops which haven't even been shown to work on mice at Porton Down.

And yes, Sween, you're quite right. Churchill (our "Greatest Briton") was the first to decide that it would be a grand idea to gas the unruly "primitive tribes" in the arbitrarily drawn borders of what we (Brits) decided consituted Iraq in the 1920s. The only reason he didn't do it was because they couldn't get such a weapon to work.

I don't have any illusions about British innocence here. We gave the world concentration camps, divide and rule, ethnic cleansing, economic and cultural imperialism and mass censorship. Just because others have perfected these tools doesn't make us, as a nation, any better than anyone else.

And the propaganda our so-called free press is coming out with at the moment is totally sickening.

* barfs into filing cabinet *

no cheers

d.

BTW - Bush, Gore, Blair, Thatcher: it makes no difference. Human rights take second place to big business for all of them.

Very true very true im affraid. But at least Thatcher would make her own mind(if anything else she never was led by any other countries policies).

Now war now look certain. Its allready in motions and what the end will be. In theory we should win this war easily we are far better equiped and specilised than Iraq.

My whole problem of this and this is a english person speaking here is that we have been led by american policy not british. Mr Blair is comming out very unfavoriably in my eyes he just comes running to bush call.

I do not agree with this war for the simple reasons it is not US or british business to depoise a leader. Its our job to act responiably and support the correct channels (the UN).

Americans have voted Bush as there leader and therefore he is answeriable to them but i dont like the way an american is basically gonna send our boys (i have many friends in the army) in. Think of it as an unelcected official decideding what taxs you are gonna pay.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
I do not agree with this war for the simple reasons it is not US or british business to depoise a leader. Its our job to act responiably and support the correct channels (the UN).

American's never voted the UN in as the rulers of American foreign policy. As I've stated - I don't even think the US shold be in the UN.

Americans have voted Bush as there leader and therefore he is answeriable to them but i dont like the way an american is basically gonna send our boys (i have many friends in the army) in. Think of it as an unelcected official decideding what taxs you are gonna pay.

If your friends didn't consider going into war - why did they join the army? Did they think it was a drinking club or something and made a mistake? There is only one reason to go into the armed forces and that is to go to war and defend your country. If you're not willing to fight in a war - then don't join the army.

I don't see Bush calling up your troops - Blair is. If you have a problem with it - you better continue to take it up with him. By the way if it was Thatcher (who I liked) - I don't really like Blair - you'd be calling her a lap dog if she supported the war and you didn't.

At least some of you have come to realise that your country isn't perfect. Some of the root causes of the problems in the Middle East all boil down to the crusades and Europe's colonialism.

I guess you guys just think we should just negotiate with Saddam Hussein even though Hans Blix is now saying that Iraq is NOT cooperating and that he is hiding things. Without the US's strong stance - Saddam Hussein would be continuing to ignore the UN resolutions. The US forced Hussein to accept the UN Inspections - do you think he would have done it if the UN just got on their hands and knees and begged? The UN only passes resolutions and then wipes it's hands and walks away. Look at the cannibalism that they declared is going on in Africa - are they doing anything about it? Congo rebels must halt massacres - U.N. or what? The UN is a joke - they can't do anything other than spew a lot of hot air and wag their finger in the air telling these rogue nations to behave. It's like the joke we have concerning cops not carrying guns in Britain. The cop is chasing a criminal "Stop........ or I'll yell stop again."

[Sween]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
American's never voted the UN in as the rulers of American foreign policy. As I've stated - I don't even think the US shold be in the UN.

If your friends didn't consider going into war - why did they join the army? Did they think it was a drinking club or something and made a mistake? There is only one reason to go into the armed forces and that is to go to war and defend your country. If you're not willing to fight in a war - then don't join the army.

I don't see Bush calling up your troops - Blair is. If you have a problem with it - you better continue to take it up with him. By the way if it was Thatcher (who I liked) - I don't really like Blair - you'd be calling her a lap dog if she supported the war and you didn't.

At least some of you have come to realise that your country isn't perfect. Some of the root causes of the problems in the Middle East all boil down to the crusades and Europe's colonialism.

In all truth a lot of my mates are a bit thick. Esspecially burty. God bless him he only joined the army to get out of cumbria and get women. I dont think it crossed his mind (the silly sod) that he may have to go shot people and be shot at.

Indeed blair is techincally but it seem under bushs sole comand you know bush says jump and blair says how high kinda job. Ive allready passed on a complaint to my MP (as one of my teacher wisely said one day you dont have the right to complain if you dont complain to the people that can make a difference) so im allowed to bitch a lot !

My country has made a lot of mistakes down the line i would just hate to see america do the same thing. We still are making a lot of mistakes we are the only western country i can think so that openly allows leaders of terrorist organisations into there governement why you have not bombed us is a mystery.

But this is a genral question that we asked down the pub last night (oh yes we can get quite topical down there) whom do you fear more sadam or Bush and we all came up with bush cos we sure as hell kow hes got nucular wepons and he doesnt seem totally against using them

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
My country has made a lot of mistakes down the line i would just hate to see america do the same thing. We still are making a lot of mistakes we are the only western country i can think so that openly allows leaders of terrorist organisations into there governement why you have not bombed us is a mystery.

But this is a genral question that we asked down the pub last night (oh yes we can get quite topical down there) whom do you fear more sadam or Bush and we all came up with bush cos we sure as hell kow hes got nucular wepons and he doesnt seem totally against using them

i shoudl remind you that you have nukes too. if Blair is such a lapdog - maybe we would just have Blair shoot yours off.

I believe that everyone was also againt the US bomging of Lybia after the Pan Am bombing. But hey - we haven't had any problems from Gaddafi since then - and he's currently supporting the effort against terrorism. I just hope he's sincere on this support.

Admit it though - Europe secretly hopes that the US falls flat on our faces so you can regain world power status. During the Japan bubble market - everyone declared the end of the US and that the Yen was going to replace the dollar as the world's currency. We see how far that went. There will of course be a time when the US will desolve and be replaced - especially if we don't protect our freedoms.

Also - why do seem to distrust Bush so much - especially since there is so much proof that Saddam Hussein has been lying and so much to back up what Bush has been saying? It's been pointed out here - that Hans Blix is the same weapons inspector that declared North Korea clean and they've been working on nuclear weapon techonology since 1990's. Also he was quoted as saying that Iraq wasn't hiding anything during the previous inspections - now he's coming out and saying that they aren't cooperating and there are serious problems in Iraq.

[Sween]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
i shoudl remind you that you have nukes too. if Blair is such a lapdog - maybe we would just have Blair shoot yours off.

I believe that everyone was also againt the US bomging of Lybia after the Pan Am bombing. But hey - we haven't had any problems from Gaddafi since then - and he's currently supporting the effort against terrorism. I just hope he's sincere on this support.

Admit it though - Europe secretly hopes that the US falls flat on our faces so you can regain world power status. During the Japan bubble market - everyone declared the end of the US and that the Yen was going to replace the dollar as the world's currency. We see how far that went. There will of course be a time when the US will desolve and be replaced - especially if we don't protect our freedoms.

Also - why do seem to distrust Bush so much - especially since there is so much proof that Saddam Hussein has been lying and so much to back up what Bush has been saying? It's been pointed out here - that Hans Blix is the same weapons inspector that declared North Korea clean and they've been working on nuclear weapon techonology since 1990's. Also he was quoted as saying that Iraq wasn't hiding anything during the previous inspections - now he's coming out and saying that they aren't cooperating and there are serious problems in Iraq.

If we use our nukes i would seriously consider starting a civil war thats how strongly i feel they should not be used.

The thought has never crossed my mind to replace US as the number one i wasnt aware that you were the number one country or partiually care. This aint an economic thing is it? its a whats right and whats wrong and if we go down this road what will be the long term damage?

why do i distrust bush? Well everytime i have seen him on tele or been interview he seems to have this whole im right your wrong thing going on about him. He worries me hes like a wondeed dog its all ohh everyone wants to kill everyone ion the US sadam wants to kill us all. 9/11 this 9/11 that. Know what i mean all i have heard out of him the whole time hes been in office is how all these other people are comming to get him and if he can just find one grain of truth in this hes going in after them. Bush scares me cos Bush wants war. Plus theres the fact i dont think much of his much melinged intelegence (im sure hes not as dumb as people make out) but he does carry the air of a gun toteing hick from the byeue who shots trespassers on sight and marries his sister

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
The thought has never crossed my mind to replace US as the number one i wasnt aware that you were the number one country or partiually care. This aint an economic thing is it? its a whats right and whats wrong and if we go down this road what will be the long term damage?

Once Iraq builds up it's weapons - which obviously Saddam Hussein is doing - what will the consequences be? Europe waited and conjoled Hitler for a long time without taking action. Today you don't have to have mass troop buildups that can be seen to wipe out a city - all you need is some chemical factories or biological laboratories. Biological agents can be developed anywhere. So if you want to deal with Iraq - once they have those things at their fingertips then be my guest.

why do i distrust bush? Well everytime i have seen him on tele or been interview he seems to have this whole im right your wrong thing going on about him. He worries me hes like a wondeed dog its all ohh everyone wants to kill everyone ion the US sadam wants to kill us all. 9/11 this 9/11 that. Know what i mean all i have heard out of him the whole time hes been in office is how all these other people are comming to get him and if he can just find one grain of truth in this hes going in after them. Bush scares me cos Bush wants war. Plus theres the fact i dont think much of his much melinged intelegence (im sure hes not as dumb as people make out) but he does carry the air of a gun toteing hick from the byeue who shots trespassers on sight and marries his sister

Well you haven't had an Al Qaeda attack with the whole middle east fighting for the destruction of your country. Yeah - they spout off about how they want the destruction of the western world - but you haven't had a serious terrorist attack yet, so you don't really get it. The IRA attacks are small potatoes of what occurred on 9/11. If you ever come out here - I'll show you the area of New York that was wiped off the face of the earth, I live 45 miles from where they once stood - or you can look at my Twin Towers Memorial Site. Just hope that Al Qaeda doesn't make it through and succeed on a chemical attack on the undergound or blow up Buckingham Palace or blow up Parliament. By the way - my mail processing center is still shut down from the Anthrax. The building is wrapped in plastic. The FBI hasn't discovered who did it, so it may or may not have Al Qaeda connections. But it doesn't mean that something like that can't happen.

Also - most of the terrorists lived in New Jersey, as a matter of fact the city where my mother grew up - Jersey City. When I go into the store or the mall - I question is the person in front of me in line a possible terrorist. Will I walk into a store that gets blown up, or with 500 people watching LotR - does one of them possibly have a bomb and plans to blow up the theater. We know that these are not impossibilities - look at what has been happening in Israel and the South Pacific. It's only a matter of time before another attack gets through. America has to be proactive in this war and that's what we're doing.

[Sween]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Once Iraq builds up it's weapons - which obviously Saddam Hussein is doing - what will the consequences be? Europe waited and conjoled Hitler for a long time without taking action. Today you don't have to have mass troop buildups that can be seen to wipe out a city - all you need is some chemical factories or biological laboratories. Biological agents can be developed anywhere. So if you want to deal with Iraq - once they have those things at their fingertips then be my guest.

Well you haven't had an Al Qaeda attack with the whole middle east fighting for the destruction of your country. Yeah - they spout off about how they want the destruction of the western world - but you haven't had a serious terrorist attack yet, so you don't really get it. The IRA attacks are small potatoes of what occurred on 9/11. If you ever come out here - I'll show you the area of New York that was wiped off the face of the earth, I live 45 miles from where they once stood - or you can look at my Twin Towers Memorial Site. Just hope that Al Qaeda doesn't make it through and succeed on a chemical attack on the undergound or blow up Buckingham Palace or blow up Parliament. By the way - my mail processing center is still shut down from the Anthrax. The building is wrapped in plastic. The FBI hasn't discovered who did it, so it may or may not have Al Qaeda connections. But it doesn't mean that something like that can't happen.

Also - most of the terrorists lived in New Jersey, as a matter of fact the city where my mother grew up - Jersey City. When I go into the store or the mall - I question is the person in front of me in line a possible terrorist. Will I walk into a store that gets blown up, or with 500 people watching LotR - does one of them possibly have a bomb and plans to blow up the theater. We know that these are not impossibilities - look at what has been happening in Israel and the South Pacific. It's only a matter of time before another attack gets through. America has to be proactive in this war and that's what we're doing.

9/11 wasnt the worst thing that ever happened in the world. I mean it was terriable but does it deserve to be talked about so long after it. 3,000 people died i know but more die of famine each day than that, more die of aids, more die in war.

would we still be talking about it if it had happened to a lesser nation.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sween
9/11 wasnt the worst thing that ever happened in the world. I mean it was terriable but does it deserve to be talked about so long after it. 3,000 people died i know but more die of famine each day than that, more die of aids, more die in war.

would we still be talking about it if it had happened to a lesser nation.

Maybe not - but face it - when something happens in your backyard you care about it more than if it happens to your neighbor. Sorry - but that's a fact and a fact for everyone. I'm sure you care more about your family and friends than some stranger in another city. You may empathize when something happens and you hear about it on the news - but then you go on with your life and put it behind you.

Bush is talking to Americans about 9/11 - not necessarily to the world - your news of course covers this. 9/11 was in OUR backyard so of course it's important to us. It especially important to the area I live in. We are constantly on edge here. Just yesterday there was a chemical truck stolen in Brooklyn - luckily it was found. On New Years there was that false alarm about those 5 terrorists sneaking into the US from Canada. When the ball dropped in Times Square people were expecting the news to come on and say that Wall Street was just bombed. New York Harbor was closed to all recreational vehicles and the bridges and tunnels were being patrolled.

[Sween]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Maybe not - but face it - when something happens in your backyard you care about it more than if it happens to your neighbor. Sorry - but that's a fact and a fact for everyone. I'm sure you care more about your family and friends than some stranger in another city. You may empathize when something happens and you hear about it on the news - but then you go on with your life and put it behind you.

Bush is talking to Americans about 9/11 - not necessarily to the world - your news of course covers this. 9/11 was in OUR backyard so of course it's important to us. It especially important to the area I live in. We are constantly on edge here. Just yesterday there was a chemical truck stolen in Brooklyn - luckily it was found. On New Years there was that false alarm about those 5 terrorists sneaking into the US from Canada. When the ball dropped in Times Square people were expecting the news to come on and say that Wall Street was just bombed. New York Harbor was closed to all recreational vehicles and the bridges and tunnels were being patrolled.

Honestally how do you live like that? I am aware that there is a good cahnce if it all kicked off i would die early i live near a very tactical sire (sellefeild) which would be a prime target many of my mates work there.

Do you really think the threat is that great because i allways saw 9/11 as a one off