03-30-2003, 04:09 PM | #521 |
'Sober' Mullet Frosh
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The idea that terror attack America because it steps on toes seems shallow. If one dislikes specific (or even broad) national policies there are ways to do so. However I see all terror attacks as essentially acts of war against the state-an attack in ideals, founding principles and instituitons. The 9/11 terrorists saw American liberal democracy as threatening their percieved cultural integrity, so they "invaded" the U.S. If the U.S bent over backwards to ensure popularity among terrorists it's called appeasement.
This really is a war to make the world safe for democracy, in the sense that it eliminates a regime that will actively support attempts to stop its spread and destory its base-a shoddily run one, but that is still the purpose. Those who disagree with it, IMO moslty oppose U.S methods of doing so, but there are always some (a vocal minority) who just don't like liberal-capitalist democracy and do not wish to see active campaigns to preserve it. Note that International ANSWER and its sister organizations are backed not by human rights groups (a very liberal concept), but by Stalinists, who by definition, oppose liberalism and all its variants.
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03-30-2003, 04:16 PM | #522 |
Elf Lord
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I've heard people on the news and in other places saying they're not in support of Saddam or Bush's war. People here on Entmoot tend to say the same thing, I think, that they're not in favor of Saddam Hussein but they think this war is wrong.
I think that they're very incorrect that this war is wrong and that the evidence is overwhelming which supports Prime Minister Blair's and President Bush's statements and reasons. However, I think that whether or not the war originally was wrong is less relevant now than it was. We're in the war now; it's well underway. So backing out of continuing the war will have different effects then not starting the war would have had. Our troops backing out of Iraq would cause all the people who spoke out against Saddam Hussein to be under threat again- there'd be thousands of death for certain. Not only that, but we'd be leaving the oppressed people of Iraq (They are oppressed) under the sway of an utterly brutal regime. We've betrayed the people of Iraq before at least twice by not helping them. There were thousands upon thousands of deaths in Iraq after the Gulf War, when Saddam took out his revenge upon those that had stood up against him. They had thought that the present President Bush would protect and assist them, but he didn't and so they were massacred. I'm not removing all blame from America in this, though there were good reasons why we couldn't go forward and help them. It's a terrible tragedy that we didn't go forward then, and the horrors that have come afterward come directly from that. The only good thing about the Gulf War was that Kuwait was liberated. The thousands of troops of Iraq that were slaughtered were primarily drafted, and the aftermath was tragic. If Iraqi oil was what American forces were after, then we're brain dead. The costs of this war in terms of money would inevitably be far greater than whatever oil profits we might procur for ourselves. The costs in terms of world opinion and public opinion would be devastating to the Bush Administration as well; does anyone honestly think that these facts weren't taken into account? That our country suddenly went both greedy and stupid? |
03-30-2003, 04:58 PM | #523 | |
the Shrike
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And of course: the US is standing to make a great deal out of this war - why is it that only US building contractors are securing contracts to rebuild Iraq? This lets the US administration effectively decide what exactly gets rebuilt in Iraq! How is this democracy?! Where exactly do the people of Iraq decide where the money is going and what is getting repaired?!
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03-30-2003, 05:19 PM | #524 | ||||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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This person is looking at it through rose colored glasses - as if just by the US supporting change in Iraq - that Hussein will miraculously just come around and see the evil of his ways. Also -the US did FORCE democracy in the past on countries - with successful results - Japan being one of them. But I guess since he's a Middle Eastern professor - his education doesn't go that far east. Or maybe he didn't want to mention that because Japan doesn't support his argument that you can not bring democracy to a country from the outside. Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-30-2003 at 05:20 PM. |
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03-30-2003, 05:30 PM | #525 |
Elf Lord
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I haven't heard much about the other factions in Iraq, but I know that the Kurds are in support of the removal of Saddam Hussein's regime, and they say that they'll submit to a democracy in Iraq, if they have fair representation.
There are a few reasons that a lot of Iraqis are against the U.S. invasion. For one, we encouraged them to rise up against Saddam Hussein during the Gulf War, and they did. Hundreds of thousands died, because we didn't back up or support those people. This is a strong reason for them to dislike or distrust us. Secondly, they've been consistently had lies spread to them by their government. I'm sure you've heard what their government has said, BeardofPants. They've been denying that our invasion has gotten anywhere, they've claimed that we've murdered thousands of their civilians and that we are targeting civilians. Al'Jazeera's spreading Saddam's account is certainly not helping their opinion of the invasion. It'll become much more easy to see where everyone stands after the fight is over and more of the truth is known. About the WMDs as well; there's still more that will be learned on that score. The U.S. is leading the coalition to change the controlling regime in Iraq, so it's only logical that they'd have a strong say in the reconstruction. I do agree that what comes after the war with Iraq is just as important as the way the war is conducted, though. An important reason why the Middle East population is against the war is the situation with Israel and the Palestinians. They see the U.S. as supporting Sharon's policy no matter what he chooses, and they see the Palestinians as wronged. Our actions there are causing them to think that there's little chance of our doing something just and good with Iraq. President Bush has stated that we need to follow through with the plan that already has been endorsed by the U.N. immediately after the war with Iraq is complete. They thought things through a lot beforehand, and they know that they'll have to deal with a very tough situation. The situation with Israel has to be resolved, and we can't for any longer just continue supporting Sharon's policy, no matter what he does, in the way we are. |
03-30-2003, 05:51 PM | #526 |
Hobbit
Join Date: Mar 2003
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this thread is deadly boring.
and even more useless. |
03-30-2003, 05:54 PM | #527 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Geee, with a name like troll...I wonder what he plans to do here...
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03-30-2003, 05:57 PM | #528 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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03-31-2003, 03:26 AM | #529 | |
High King of Númenórë
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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03-31-2003, 03:41 AM | #530 | |
High King of Númenórë
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http://www.inc.org.uk/
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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03-31-2003, 03:48 AM | #531 |
High King of Númenórë
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Man being sick made me miss a lot of good stuff, by the way, I love you JD (in a non-sexual platonic kinda way)
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
03-31-2003, 03:52 AM | #532 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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03-31-2003, 03:57 AM | #533 | ||
High King of Númenórë
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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03-31-2003, 04:18 AM | #534 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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03-31-2003, 04:26 AM | #535 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Plainsboro, NJ
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However - we were telling the Iraqis that the water was FREE and the British troops were telling them they had to pay. Quote:
By the way Dúnedain - I hope you feel better. Seems pretty aweful.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 03-31-2003 at 04:36 AM. |
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03-31-2003, 04:43 AM | #536 | |
High King of Númenórë
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'Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar tenn' Ambar-metta!' - And those were the words that Elendil spoke when he came up out of the Sea on the wings of the wind: 'Out of the Great Sea to Middle-earth I am come. In this place will I abide, and my heirs, unto the ending of the world.' 'Then Tuor arrayed himself in the hauberk, and set the helm upon his head, and he girt himself with the sword; black were sheath and belt with clasps of silver. Thus armed he went forth from Turgon's hall, and stood upon the high terraces of Taras in the red light of the sun. None were there to see him, as he gazed westward, gleaming in silver and gold, and he knew not that in that hour he appeared as one of the Mighty of the West, and fit to be father of the kings of the Kings of Men beyond the Sea, as it was indeed his doom to be; but in the taking of those arms a change came upon Tuor son of Huor, and his heart grew great within him. And as he stepped down from the doors the swans did him reverence, and plucking each a great feather from their wings they proffered them to him, laying their long necks upon the stone before his feet; and he took the seven feathers and set them in the crest of his helm, and straightway the swans arose and flew north in the sunset, and Tuor saw them no more.' -Of Tuor and his Coming to Gondolin "Oh. Forgive me, fairest of all males of Entmoot...Back down, all ye other wannabe fairest males! Dunedain is the fairest!" --Linaewen |
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03-31-2003, 11:06 AM | #537 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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03-31-2003, 02:00 PM | #538 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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03-31-2003, 04:28 PM | #539 |
Eccentric Chocolate Crow
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(It is now confirmed, 12 Americans and 4 Britains are the first casualties in the war)
Question: What about all those Iraqis we were talking about a few posts earlier? Aren't those casualties, too? I would also like to comment on the ageism--not flaming. Just that because a few kids make comments out of annoyance and / or ignorance, many adults think that all kids are uninformed and everything. This is not true. I am perfectly able to form my own opinions...I am also nearly voting age, and you can bet I WILL be voting come next election! Tano GBA
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03-31-2003, 08:10 PM | #540 |
Lurker
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I very much support that, Tano. (Says the twelve-year-old.)
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