11-11-2002, 04:10 PM | #521 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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It's really a wonderful strategy. Evolution is too complex and there is no danger if you don't believe it is true. Creation is so simple a child can remember it. They are taught that to not believe means to burn for eternity in hell. It is passed on by adults to children before they have the capacity to reason. It has evolved into a self-perpetuating idea far more adapted than evolution, especially in an environment on fear and ignorance. But the enlightenment is graining, creeping ever-forward, growing in both the power of it's truth and the evidence to support it. It has weathered attacks for the first of it's century and continues to thrive. The dinosaurs are falling over each other trying to stamp the little mammal. They forget that the asteroid of knowledge is heading right for them. It's that nagging feeling that makes them attack the theory as though it were death itself. Their own doubts about what it means. It's not an attack by science but a conflict within their own minds. They aren't trying to convince non-believers; it's an effort to prevent the loss of any of the flock. The Theory of creation is a sacramental wafer to drive away the evil thoughts. I wonder if god really gave us large brains to memorize church dogma instead of learning about his creation by experiencing it's fantastic complexity as revealed in nature? I'm guessing those with the bible want everyone to use that book but turn their back on creation itself. I encourage those who aren't sure to educate themselves in order to make an intelligent choice. It is obvious that many people make there assessments about evolution based on an incomplete understanding of it. Here's a bit on the "intermediates" for those still listening.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-11-2002, 04:16 PM | #522 | |
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-11-2002, 04:24 PM | #523 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Also - anyone that doesn't realise that Evolution is a Theory is an idiot basically. Sorry - but the full name is THEORY of Evolution. If that doesn't give it away - I don't what will. But there is no other theory out there that really stands up to the scientific scrutiny right now. Is evolution perfect, do we understand evolution completely? NO. But science attempts to find the answers. If something comes up that throws a wrench into the Theory of Evolution - then they must account for it in some way. They need to find out why it doesn't fit. In religion and the arguement for Intelligent Design you can just argue "well God just did it that way" and go on. That is not science. You can't prove intelligent design exists in nature by bringing up man made objects as proof. Does that mean that we are Gods? We have created new organisisms so I guess we are. Like I said before - the earth being an alien's failed 3rd grade science experiment is more believable to me than a supreme being. I have never discounted the possibilty that we weren't created by some outside entity - I just don't believe in a supreme all knowing being.
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11-11-2002, 04:27 PM | #524 | |
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Cirdan, you are completely wrong about religion, our purpose, and just about everything in your post. I won't even bother with refuting all of it point by point. However, I will reexplain my logic and opinion, as you clearly didn't grip it. Children at an earlier age (Between birth and adolescence) are more ready to accept and learn new things, and believe them for truth. It is easy for them to accept things, and an important time of learning for them. Later on, like when they reach adolescence they begin to grapple with the questions of how we know the things we know, and what is truth?. Certain fact should be taught to children at this earlier age, not changing theories (For evolution, as you apparently are objecting to, is still at an early stage in development). I'm saying that at this stage of learning, children shouldn't be forced to grapple with questions that they aren't ready to grapple with yet. They should be taught things that are certain fact or which aren't likely to change. Then, later on when they're ready to question and to learn about more difficult subjects, then they should be taught the things that are more theoretical and prone to change. The trouble is, Cirdan, that you seem to have a dogmatic view of science which actually fits the description given by BeardofPants for religion. Look at #3, and try to keep an open mind in this debate. |
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11-11-2002, 04:33 PM | #525 |
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Anyway, I'm going to drop out of this debate for a little while to do further research on the environment issue.
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11-11-2002, 04:35 PM | #526 | |
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There is no evidence of knowledge harming young children.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 11-11-2002 at 04:40 PM. |
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11-11-2002, 05:17 PM | #527 | ||
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We are not things. Last edited by Earniel : 11-11-2002 at 05:18 PM. |
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11-11-2002, 07:33 PM | #528 | |
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11-11-2002, 08:08 PM | #529 |
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Children at age thirteen are probably about the right age. I would hope that a lot more of the basic foundation sciences would be taught before evolution. Chemistry, Biology, Geology, Geography, and of course math and the other basics up to an apropriate level should be covered first. I don't think that the theory makes as much sense without it. Historical readings in general science would be greatly deficient in not discussing the role of the theory in science and how it came about. Some have tried to appease the anti-evolutionsts by teaching "around" evolution but they invariably run into problems discussing heredity, morphology, and genetics without it.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-11-2002, 08:11 PM | #530 | ||
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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And NO WAY should evolution be limited to 15 years or older. I say whenever students get into more "advanced" science - which for me was around 6th grade. Younger than that you still learn about dinosaurs and early humans - but not evolution. Leif - I didn't read about the wing sprouting post - and I'm not commenting on that. I never referred to it. I was replying to the fact that people were claiming that the fly was a complex creature. I was responding to this - Quote:
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-11-2002 at 08:31 PM. |
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11-11-2002, 08:36 PM | #531 | |
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Religion has social uses beyond creation so I think children do benefit from some exposure to it. People should consider how well the child will understand a strict reading of actual scripture before pushing too deep into it, though. I think it is worse to prevent a child from having access to all positive aspects of our culture. Early indoctrination of anything using a dogmatic approach while blocking out alternative ideas does more harm than good. Basic common sense about age appropriate matters is best.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-11-2002, 09:16 PM | #532 | |
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AARGGHH! I come back from Grandma's and my posts are completely misunderstood!! Well, I'll get a cup of tea and try to clear things up.
OK, I'm going to start by quoting my post: Quote:
My personal beliefs have NOTHING to do with how I scientifically evaluate something, and th. of ev. people's beliefs should ALSO have NOTHING to do with how they evaluate something scientifically. Wouldn't you agree? Please do me the courtesy of reading the above quote again and tell me how formulating a theory on the basis of creation by intelligent design is not a reasonable premise, as seems to be the opinion among th. of ev. people. Or, if you agree that it is a reasonable premise for a theory, then you can tell me that, too! (and again, as I said before, it will be the DETAILS of the theory that are testable - "in the area of physics, I expect to see the following: a, b, c..; in the area of biology, I expect to see the following: d, e, f....," etc.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-11-2002, 09:19 PM | #533 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(ps - I'm not trying to "yell" by using bolds and caps, I'm trying to bring to your attention the important areas where I have been completely misunderstood. Again, please don't answer back the way you would to the creationists that you have come across in the past, I'm asking you to read and think about and answer MY post.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-11-2002, 09:25 PM | #534 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-11-2002, 09:33 PM | #535 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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About the ID I think the misinterpretation is due to the misuse of the "theory" label. It may be a hypothesis, but there are no observations to support it.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-11-2002, 09:35 PM | #536 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-11-2002, 09:41 PM | #537 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But do you see that belief has nothing to do with either theory? That BOTH have a reasonable premise, and both should have their TESTABLE DETAILS developed and tested and adjusted, as necessary, by intelligent and open-minded scientists?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-11-2002, 09:46 PM | #538 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-11-2002, 10:00 PM | #539 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-11-2002, 10:00 PM | #540 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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All intelligent design is is evolution based on their being a god - particularly a chiristian god. There is no scientific proof of there being a supreme being. Until there is - god or a supreme being should not be brought into the science room. The use of God can explain anything without having to look any further at the facts. Can't explain gravity - just say that god created it. Can't explain the sun - just say god created it. Anything man can't understand - or if the Intelligent Design "theory" runs into some problems - just say that God created it that way. New Jersey is a very deverse state - with the Hindus, Jews, Catholics, Muslims, etc. Whose religion do we teach? Would you accept the Hindu belief of the cow being the intermediate between the two lives of a person being taught in school? There is no scientific fact in this - but who is to say it's wrong? What happens if they coin a theory to try to explain it - would you be willing to have it taught in a science course? Maybe you want to look further at the truth - but most people that support Intelligent Design only do it because it gets God and creationism into the public schools.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-11-2002 at 10:03 PM. |
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