11-14-2004, 12:52 AM | #521 | |
Elf Lord
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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11-14-2004, 01:58 AM | #522 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Rats - I"m discovered!
(just don't tell my husband!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-15-2004, 10:05 AM | #523 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Well I'm keeping my beard! I think it looks cool.
Yet more short posts from two of the most verose people in this thread. (RÃ*an and I ). What is the world coming to!? BoP, do you believe that RÃ*an and I have beards? (Or that RÃ*an formerly did anyway.) Or is there another, possibly deeper, aspect of your beliefs you'd like to explore?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-15-2004, 10:45 AM | #524 | |
The Intermittent One
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nero and octavia agrippina and claudius nero and agrippina etc |
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11-15-2004, 01:40 PM | #525 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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BOP - are you still with us? There's pending questions - would you like a summary?
And who would like to go next? And in the meantime, I'll state what I mean by we're created in the image of God - basically, to me it means that we are moral agents that can choose how we act, based upon our thinking and our knowledge/sense of what's right and wrong. Also, we are creative (both mentally and actually carrying out sub-creations), and passionate (have feelings about things - joy, sorrow, laughter, love, etc.), and are initiators as well as receivers (i.e., we interact with others), and are in authority, for good, over lesser things (tho we mostly abuse it ). God is all of these things, and we are made in His image. There's more, too, but it's Monday morning and my brain is fuzzy
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-15-2004, 06:34 PM | #526 |
the Shrike
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I know I still have to deal with Inked's comments, but I don't know what else I've missed. A summation would be good, and then the next ... victim... can stand up.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
11-15-2004, 06:41 PM | #527 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Nurvi and I had follow-ups on the antiquities museum - maybe Nurvi can sum up the questions if she's still trying to avoid studying (we've all been there, Nurvi!) I have to go pick up the kids in a few minutes
looking back, here's another from Nurvi : Quote:
All I can see back is 20 posts right now, but I'm pretty sure there's more - I'll try to sum up when I get back.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-15-2004, 06:45 PM | #528 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I'll add one quick one - I have about 5 minutes left - let me see if I can phrase it OK -
Given your (prevailing) atheistic beliefs (with the occasional surfacing of agnosticism), can you then say that you believe that human "morality" is entirely tied into preservation of the species, and whatever - whatever - happens to promote this, directly or indirectly, will be considered to be "good" and/or "right" by humans? If something was considered right by these standards at one point in time, and is not necessary for another, can "right"/"good" change, even to the point of where it's completely opposite from what it once was?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-16-2004 at 12:51 PM. |
11-15-2004, 06:47 PM | #529 | |
Marshal of the Eastmark
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11-16-2004, 10:21 AM | #530 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Elfhelm,
At best it would mean in some cases the taboo is seemingly based on economics. By far the bulk of incest prohibitions are religious in nature. This raises the question of which came first: a generalized moral prohibition for the incestuously minded which was broken in certain modes in specific societies for given reasons, or, the evolution of the prohibition from wildly incestuous societies for some greater societal good? I think there is little, if any, evidence for the latter. In the case of the former, why is it (and the bulk of the data, the overwhelmingly large amount of the data) that in the huge range of human societies the god(s) disapproved the behaviours? In the latter, given the short duration of human life for the bulk of history, how did the individual groups discover the adverse effects of incest and pass along the information and its analysis so as to inhibit it?
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Inked "Aslan is not a tame lion." CSL/LWW "The new school [acts] as if it required...courage to say a blasphemy. There is only one thing that requires real courage to say, and that is a truism." GK Chesterton "And there is always the danger of allowing people to suppose that our modern times are so wholly unlike any other times that the fundamental facts about man's nature have wholly changed with changing circumstances." Dorothy L. Sayers, 1 Sept. 1941 |
11-16-2004, 11:48 AM | #531 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Brilliant Summary of Brilliance
(Yes… I am putting off studying a bit… ) About the Antiquities Museum in Iraq Nurvingiel: What is the Antiquities Museum and what hapenned to it? RÃ*an: Why does "" sum it up? What about it made you mad, and why? (btw, I agree - what a loss! ) Morality Nurvingiel: In addition (for everyone), I think morality applies only to humans. Is it immoral for the dominant male lion to kill the cubs of his predecessors? Is it immoral for the cow to eat the last blade of grass, or for the tiger to eat the [insert small cute furry mammal]? [Added in this post] What do you think? (You did already deal with this in part, so feel free to ignore.) RÃ*an: And in the meantime, I'll state what I mean by we're created in the image of God - basically, to me it means that we are moral agents that can choose how we act, based upon our thinking and our knowledge/sense of what's right and wrong. Also, we are creative (both mentally and actually carrying out sub-creations), and passionate (have feelings about things - joy, sorrow, laughter, love, etc.), and are initiators as well as receivers (i.e., we interact with others), and are in authority, for good, over lesser things (tho we mostly abuse it ). God is all of these things, and we are made in His image. There's more, too, but it's Monday morning and my brain is fuzzy Image of God (if there is one) Tessar: We don't think we look physically like God, we believe he breathed his 'spirit' into us. In a sense, made us animated. [Added in this post, by me] What do you think? Christian beliefs – your views on these beliefs Nurvingiel: It has been mentioned before that Christian beliefs are relitively quite radical (as compared to other world religions). What do you think about that BoP? I mean, what are your feelings/thoughts on this statement. (I sound like such a git with that statement, but my intention is merely curiosity, not being a git. ) And… who’s next?
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-16-2004, 12:50 PM | #532 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thanks for your summary, Nurvi - I think you got 'em all, except for the most recent one I slipped in there (Isn't it fun to avoid studying! ) Here it is:
RÃ*an: Given your (prevailing) atheistic beliefs (with the occasional surfacing of agnosticism), can you then say that you believe that human "morality" is entirely tied into preservation of the species, and whatever - whatever - happens to promote this, directly or indirectly, will be considered to be "good" and/or "right" by humans? If something was considered right by these standards at one point in time, and is not necessary for another, can "right"/"good" change, even to the point of where it's completely opposite from what it once was? I'll go next, if no one else wants to go next
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-16-2004, 05:28 PM | #533 | ||||||
the Shrike
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As far as 'moral agents' go... well, I just don't buy it. It again seems to place us as humans on some sort of pedestal. We humans are still animals, entirely capable of reverting to our more baser natures... If we're supposed to be moral agents, then I find that very depressing, indeed. If we're the example to be held as perfection (granted, sinful perfection, but still the top of God's heap), then well... excuse me, I have to go laugh in my sleave now. Moral agents.... again, it implies a level of arrogance, superiority, etc, which I'm sorry to say, has been my predominant impression of christian theism. Quote:
Please forgive if none of this makes sense, my brain is yet again... mush.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords Last edited by BeardofPants : 11-16-2004 at 05:37 PM. |
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11-16-2004, 05:34 PM | #534 | |||
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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11-16-2004, 06:24 PM | #535 | |||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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What's one of your best characteristics? I'll identify one for you, to save time. You're intelligent, as judged by common standards. Now, you are intelligent - THRU NO EFFORT OF YOURS (what you DO with the intelligence is another matter ). Now, is it arrogant to acknowledge that you're intelligent, or is it just acknowledging a fact? (and the WAY you acknowledge that you're intelligent can be arrogant, but that's not what I'm talking about.) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-16-2004, 06:28 PM | #536 | |||
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Thanks for all your answers BoP. Sorry I put up a couple questions you had dealt with, but I was sifting through two pages of posts (which isn't that bad)...
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That's what I was getting at, but you don't have to field that one.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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11-17-2004, 01:02 PM | #537 | ||
The Chocoholic Sea Elf Administrator
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Even if we're an unspecial group of animals, we're a different group, just like there are so many (sometimes fundamental) differences in the animal groups. But the ability to value distant and less substantial things makes us no more special than the rest of the fauna and flora kingdom, only different.
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We are not things. |
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11-17-2004, 01:07 PM | #538 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Finrod, do you want to go, or should I?
(he's prob. busy touring ...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-17-2004, 07:07 PM | #539 | |
the Shrike
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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11-17-2004, 08:27 PM | #540 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And why should we bother understanding who we are and where we are going to? Shouldn't we just go with the flow of evolution? Unless you think it's better to go a certain direction - but "better" implies a standard you are judging against, which implies the existence of an absolute, doesn't it?
Anyway, thank you very much, BOP, for being in the hot seat. There's follow-up questions that I had for you in my previous post, but I get the feeling that you're just not motivated to answer them, which is fine. I was also hoping you'd feel comfortable enough to dive into those areas that set off "vehement" reactions, but you aren't, which is just where you're at now, and I'm fine with that, too, altho I wish we could have delved into them. I think areas like that are worth exploring, altho it isn't easy. Could you please wrap up, and then I think I'll go next, as Lizra suggested - I'd love for Finrod to go, but he just isn't around much, and I'd like to pick up the pace of the thread.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-17-2004 at 08:30 PM. |