Offshoot discussion of "what religion are you" thread

[Snowdog]

Reading through much of this thread reminds me why I dont discuss religion on messageboards.

Hi RÃ*an! How are you?

[Andúril]

RÃ*an:
No, I'm not evading the request...

*snip evasion*

[Rían]

Hi Snowdog, nice to see you again! I wondered where you've been. We pretty much finished up the Tengwar thread; do you still write in Tengwar at all? If you like the Sil, there's a great chapter-by-chapter discussion going on in the Sil forum. See ya! (and religious discussions can be interesting and informative, as long as the people involved are thoughtful and considerate )

[MasterMothra]

have we come to a conclusion whether god eixist or not?
or which religion is the "right" one?

im just trying to plan my sundays.

[Rían]

I have come to a conclusion on those two topics , but we haven't discussed that subject in general on this thread yet. We've been too busy on other topics! I wish I could plan your Sunday - I would transport you over to California and take you with me and my family to our church Let me suggest one plan for your Sunday, in lieu of you coming to California - read the Bible humbly and with an open heart (I would suggest starting with the New Testament), and pray sincerely to God, asking Him to help you and reveal Himself to you. But then again, you probably won't do that, because I've never even heard back from you about reading that book that I suggested ....

[Rían]

Since there are no polite requests for me to talk about omnipotence any further, I'll let my last posts on the subject stand and move on to a question from Coney that I had marked and wanted to get to for some time. There are 2 posts that caught my eye - one from this thread, and one from the homosexuality thread. Here's the post from this thread, from (my) page 2:

Originally posted by Coney
By this do you mean that only Faith will "save" a soul?.........Should we accept Blind Faith?........Live a sinfull life and cry for confession at St Peter's feet?

Surely you statement simply means "Blessed if you do (believe) and damned if you don't"........Salvation for those who lived a life for God........Salvation also for those who (regardless of their sin) turned to God........and to buggery with those who denied God

Here's the one from the homosexuality thread:

Originally posted by Coney on the homosexual thread, 1/31/2002 8pm my time
Cool religion.....live your life as a sodomist....repent..and it is forgiven..........erm..right ...no wonder Christianity is so popular....."sodomise thy neighbour then come unto me" sheesh.so is that the big hangup? non-acceptance of Jesus after the buggery?

Coney, this is a very important topic, IMO, and I want to be sure I understand exactly what it is that you object to. I see two objections, and they both involve justice. The first one, from the homo. thread, is roughly (1) is it fair that someone can live a horrible life and then hoodwink God and thumb his nose at his victims at the end of his life by saying he has faith - and this gets him into heaven? And (2) how is it fair that someone who lives a horrible life and does terrible things to other people can even be eligible to be saved by faith?

Would you say that's pretty much what you object to? If not, could you please clear it up for me? Thanks - and BTW, that's one of the things that I admire about you - you have a strong sense of justice and are willing to risk hurt to yourself for something you think is right, like defending your friend who is homosexual from the mean taunts of cruel people.

[Coney]

Coney, this is a very important topic, IMO, and I want to be sure I understand exactly what it is that you object to. I see two objections, and they both involve justice. The first one, from the homo. thread, is roughly (1) is it fair that someone can live a horrible life and then hoodwink God at the end by saying he has faith and get into heaven? And (2) how is it fair that someone who lives a horrible life and does terrible things to other people can even be eligible to be saved by faith?

Hmm.......I wouldn't use the term "hoodwink God". I mean't it more of a "deny God" and then accept him as the almighty power and trust to his judgement (forgiveness). The rest is pretty accurate tho'.

If a soul can only be "saved" by acceptance and love for God.....then surely the whole concept of "sin" is perverted?.........if we do not worship/love God then we go to hell (obviously)...yet heaven is offered to the most terrible examples of humanity as long as they repent and accept God as their master after they have sinned.

*shrugs* that is really not my idea of justice, in any shape or form

[Rían]

Wait, you speedy rabbit - you read and posted while I was still editing!! Could you re-read and see if you have any more comments? I adjusted number 1 a bit, and added something at the end.

And what do you mean by 'the whole concept of "sin" is perverted'? I don't quite understand that - sorry I'm a bit dense...

[Rían]

What would your idea of justice be, as far as dealing with sin? Can you put it into words for me, so I can understand where you're coming from?

[Coney]

Wait, you speedy rabbit - you read and posted while I was still editing!! Could you re-read and see if you have any more comments? I adjusted number 1 a bit, and added something at the end.

No problem.....us rabbits don't hang around ya know

And what do you mean by 'the whole concept of "sin" is perverted'? I don't quite understand that - sorry I'm a bit dense...

Perverted might have been too strong a word....redundant is probably closer to the mark. (although I suppose if a sin is "forgiven and forgotten" then I suppose perverted could used).
If you repent and love/worship God then your sins are forgiven......does this not mean that sin is simply restricted to those that don't beleive/worship God?......yet unbelievers are going to hell anyway...and the believers will be forgiven....Do you all see how I get the perverted/redundant idea here?

(1) is it fair that someone can live a horrible life and then hoodwink God and thumb his nose at his victims at the end of his life by saying he has faith - and this gets him into heaven?

Nope, I don't agree with everything God does/did...but I don't think he is naive either. You must have faith (true faith) in Him to be forgiven.......but is faith enough? IMO no. (I'll get to why later).

And (2) how is it fair that someone who lives a horrible life and does terrible things to other people can even be eligible to be saved by faith?

That is certainly a question I'd like to hear peoples opinions on

Thanks - and BTW, that's one of the things that I admire about you - you have a strong sense of justice and are willing to risk hurt to yourself for something you think is right, like defending your friend who is homosexual from the mean taunts of cruel people.

Thanks *shrugs* dunno if violence is the right answer...it just felt natural at the time...it seemed to work tho

What would your idea of justice be, as far as dealing with sin? Can you put it into words for me, so I can understand where you're coming from?

Actually I can use the above quote while answering this question.
Justice is dealt out in life.......not after death. The wotsits outside the pub threatening my mates were in the wrong......justice (in this instance) was me kicking the bejesus out of them *god of retribution here j/k*...they were doing wrong and they paid for it.
Now that was just one small incident outside the pub but if you look on it on a global scale then people for millenia.....in almost every culture, people have been jailed, killed etc in the name of "justice".you commit a crime, your punished....simple as that.

Humans judge humans.....that IMO is natural. (that is not to say that I personally agree with every punishment carried out, but each culture has different ideas about what is right and wrong).

God judges humans on wether they acknowledge him/worship him or not....regardless of their sins (or lack of) on earth........that IMO is very wrong.

[Rían]

OK, thanks for the input. I agree with some of what you say, but not all (you probably knew that, right? ) I sure wish everyone here could all get together and talk face-to-face, but we can't, so we'll just have to try our best to 'talk' thru typing.

One thing that I think you could pick up by talking with me in person is that the examples that were brought up, especially things like child molestation, are simply detestable to me. If I had a shotgun in my hands and a child molester in front of me, I would have to struggle to not blast him/her to smithereens. I know I tend to talk in a formal manner in these discussions, but believe me, it's ONLY because I'm trying to communicate as best as I can about difficult subjects, NOT because I'm not emotionally affected by them.

Well, real life calls - gotta rustle up something for dinner and pay some bills and clean the kitchen and ..... do some laundry! I think I'll have some time to type in some stuff tomorrow, but in the meantime, I'll be thinking about what you said.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Rian! That rather surprised me, though I would agree with you.

[Coney]

One thing that I think you could pick up by talking with me in person is that the examples that were brought up, especially things like child molestation, are simply detestable to me. If I had a shotgun in my hands and a child molester in front of me, I would have to struggle to not blast him/her to smithereens. I know I tend to talk in a formal manner in these discussions, but believe me, it's ONLY because I'm trying to communicate as best as I can about difficult subjects, NOT because I'm not emotionally affected by them.

That is exactly how I see justice (although luckily enough we live in a world where we can hand such monsters to the police etc instead of using the shotgun).

Humans (healthy humans anyway) instinctivly have a reaction to punish/remove those who do wrong.

I don't care how much a man/woman repents .......even if they find faith there has still been a wrongdoing...how could a God forgive what we find so repulsive/disturbing or damaging (violence, theft etc)?

Yet a non-believer can live a perfectly just life......and will still be punished in hell?

No rush for the answer BTW

[Khamûl]

Originally posted by Coney
I don't care how much a man/woman repents .......even if they find faith there has still been a wrongdoing...how could a God forgive what we find so repulsive/disturbing or damaging (violence, theft etc)?

Because he loves us. He loves us so much that he sent his only son to die so that we don't have to die a second death of eternity in Hell. He overlooks the sin if you ask for forgiveness.

[Hasty Ent]

Originally posted by Coney
Yet a non-believer can live a perfectly just life......and will still be punished in hell?

Yep, according to what's in this thread. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around the idea that Ghandi is in hell...

[gimli-son-of-gloin13]

THIS WHOLE RELIGION THING IS CONFUSIN!!!

[Rían]

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
Yep, according to what's in this thread.

uh, NOPE! Absolutely NOT! Please stay tuned, and I'll get into more detail later on for anyone that's interested. (at least I challenge you to show where I, personally have said that a non-believer can live a perfectly just life and still go to hell. Since I absolutely do NOT believe that, I doubt that I have said that anywhere. I doubt if any of the other Christians here have said that, either. Can you refer back to any specific posts?)

[Amandil]

And that's why it's good. If it was too simple, it would be exhausted in a generation or two. Religion is confusing because it's rich. It's more than we can get our heads around in 515 posts.

And that (515 posts) is why I don't discuss religion on message boards!

Hey Rian, I noticed the Narnia quote in your signature. You wouldn't happen to remember the location of the quote where the Pevensies are asking some talking animal if Aslan's safe? The response was something like "no, he's not safe; but he's good." I think it had something to do with wildness, and I'm researching a bit of that these days. Sorry if this is off topic.

[Rían]

Hello, Amandil, "lover of Aman" Nice to meet you. Yes, I know that quote well, I absolutely love it! It took me about 30 seconds to find it for you.

from The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, "What Happened After Dinner", by C. S. Lewis
"Ooh!" said Susan, "I'd thought he was a man. Is he - quite safe? I shall feel rather nervous about meeting a lion."
"That you will, dearie, and no mistake," said Mrs. Beaver, "If there's anyone who can appear before Aslan without their knees knocking, they're either braver than most or else just silly."
"Then he isn't safe?" said Lucy.
"Safe?" said Mr. Beaver. "Don't you hear what Mrs. Beaver tells you? Who said anything about safe? 'Course he isn't safe. But he's good. He's the King, I tell you."

[markedel]

Echoed in LOTR by Gandalf-though the intention is slightly different...