Soldiers horrifically abuse Iraqis

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
As for the WMD - I don't really care if there is any - because that wasn't the only reason why we went into Iraq.

yeah! there was freeing the people from being treated brutaly and tortured and... oh wait... scratch that one... well there was promoting democracy even if we have to force it down their throats and... um... no? well... um... there was um... winning the hearts and mind of the iraqi people so that they dont see us as so overbearing that they actually take up arms against us and... uh.... help me out here...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Ultimatejoe
This is true. One of those nations is Iraq. As a signatory every Iraqi is protected under the Geneva Conventions. Foreign nationals on the other hand are not afforded the same protections. Now, can you honestly say that no Iraqis are among those being mistreated?

NO - just like YOU can not say that it is wide spread abuse. I never said that innocent Iraqi's haven't been caught in the net - but plenty of people have been saying this is a wide spread abuse and there is nothing to demonstrate it is as of yet.

BTW - under the convention - the US government is bound by the treaty - the only responsibility the US has really if the soldiers acted on their own to do these abuses - is to punish the soldiers - that does NOT mean that the US violated the treaty. You have no proof that the US violated the treaty - because there is no indication that this has been US sanctioned treatment.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
yeah! there was freeing the people from being treated brutaly and tortured and... oh wait... scratch that one... well there was promoting democracy even if we have to force it down their throats and... um... no? well... um... there was um... winning the hearts and mind of the iraqi people so that they dont see us as so overbearing that they actually take up arms against us and... uh.... help me out here...

Sorry - we are bringing democracy there. It wasn't going to happen over night. Sio how can you say that isn't happening? And we're not "shoving it down their thoats". As for your snide comment about the beating and torturing - again please demonstrate where it is WIDE SPREAD - where are all the other soldiers? Why do the pictures only show this ONE group of soldiers if it was so widespread. As for the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people - maybe you have missed it - but there have been demonstrations AGAINST Sadr and people ARE working with the US and continue to work with us. One minute you are saying that it's only a few iraqis attacking the US and everyone is innocent and then the next you say that they are all taking up guns and attacking us. Can you please say WHICH one it is?

[QueenAnnesLace]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
yeah! there was freeing the people from being treated brutaly and tortured and... oh wait... scratch that one... well there was promoting democracy even if we have to force it down their throats and... um... no? well... um... there was um... winning the hearts and mind of the iraqi people so that they dont see us as so overbearing that they actually take up arms against us and... uh.... help me out here...

Scratch that one?Scratch your head while you are trying to remember the Iraqi people tearing down Saddam's statues and disassembling his palace.Forcing it down thier throats?Maybe not all but the majority of Iraqi people want to be free.And the ones that say that they don't ,or at least a great part of,are too scared to speak up.

If you find the policies of the U.S. to be so distrustful and so distasteful why do you choose to stay here?

[Beor]

good point, QueenAnnesLace

[Sister Golden Hair]

Originally posted by Beor
good point, QueenAnnesLace

Hiya Beor. Nice to see you in this thread. How about giving us your views on the topic?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
Hiya Beor. Nice to see you in this thread. How about giving us your views on the topic?

yes Beor - please give us your observations as the ONLY person on entmoot who is actually living in Iraq ands has to deal with this on a daily basis.

BTW - glad to see you still safe. My cousin joined the marines - he goes into basic training in January. Right now he is working out with the marines as a pre-basic training regiment to get into shape.

[Beor]

Okay, no problem, since yall want to know.

I just wrote a nice long little response, but the server messed up and didnt post it, so here we go again

I really dont have the time to type it all again, but I will try to express the feeling of it in a few lines

I hate the fact that Americans have lost faith in their soldiers, and it pains me deeply that some soldiers have given them reason to. I am sorry if I seem cold towards the victems here, I understand that everything about that was wrong, and I garantee that it is not the norm, I know for certain that it is not, because everytime we get a detainee, we treat him with respect. It is a basic principle of the way we conduct ourselves in war. The actiuons of a few have brought dishonor and scorn upon the rest of us. I will be happy to be home, whenever I get there, and in whatever state, but I expect no warm reception, except from my family and friends. A senator got on TV a few days ago and said some pretty bad things about the military and the job we have been doing over here, and I wished that I could have ripped out his throat. He didnt even wait till I returned to spit on me.

[jerseydevil]

Wel Beor - not everyone feels that way. I mean my cousin - even AFTER all this - chose to go into the armed forces. I don't think it is the norm for you guys to be treating the prisoners that way. I think a lot of people are doing arm chair quaterbacking and there is no clear indication at all of what happened - just a bunch of rumors. Remember how the US was so criticised for the looting of the Iraqi Museum and then it was discovered that 90% of the items had been in storage for safe keeping. Again there are rumors flying around and no one is waiting for the facts to actually come out.

[Beruthiel's cat]

Beor, you response is powerful and very moving. I appreciate hearing it from you because I also feel that the actions of a very few have impacted the general perception of the entire military.

Thank you for sharing your feelings.

My personal opinion is that these soldiers were probably directed to do what they did by someone in authority, since there is some photographic evidence that they were not the only people involved in the "interogations". But who the others were and what they were doing there will have to be investigated and sorted out at another time.

In the meantime, I have always felt it was an action of a very few individuals.

(((Hugs))) to ya, Beor!!!

[Lizra]

Originally posted by Beor
Okay, no problem, since yall want to know.

I just wrote a nice long little response, but the server messed up and didnt post it, so here we go again

I really dont have the time to type it all again, but I will try to express the feeling of it in a few lines

I hate the fact that Americans have lost faith in their soldiers, and it pains me deeply that some soldiers have given them reason to. I am sorry if I seem cold towards the victems here, I understand that everything about that was wrong, and I garantee that it is not the norm, I know for certain that it is not, because everytime we get a detainee, we treat him with respect. It is a basic principle of the way we conduct ourselves in war. The actiuons of a few have brought dishonor and scorn upon the rest of us. I will be happy to be home, whenever I get there, and in whatever state, but I expect no warm reception, except from my family and friends. A senator got on TV a few days ago and said some pretty bad things about the military and the job we have been doing over here, and I wished that I could have ripped out his throat. He didnt even wait till I returned to spit on me.

I think you are seeing things rather darkly Beor! ( And I can understand that, too. ) I believe you'll get a warm reception, despite the prison scandal. I certainly admire and appreciate our soldier's efforts. These armed forces probably did not bargin for going to war when they signed up, and most have worked hard and sacrificed greatly. I just wish the prison thing had come to light much sooner (and been rectified...because good American's are not like that! ) with pictures floating around like this....it seems the bad actions of the few soldiers should have been corrected much sooner. But...I am not there, so I really don't know. Cheer up Beor...and do you have a new coming home date?!?

[Insidious Rex]

Originally posted by QueenAnnesLace
Scratch that one?Scratch your head while you are trying to remember the Iraqi people tearing down Saddam's statues and disassembling his palace.Forcing it down thier throats?Maybe not all but the majority of Iraqi people want to be free.And the ones that say that they don't ,or at least a great part of,are too scared to speak up.

If you find the policies of the U.S. to be so distrustful and so distasteful why do you choose to stay here?

Please spare me your "if you dare question our government then get the hell out" attitude. thats a sad reaction to my tongue in cheek commentary about the purpose of this occupation and frankly you know nothing of my personal views on my country or what i believe is right or not right. So keep your jingoistic preaching to yourself.

The point i was trying to bring up with that QUITE OBVIOUS parody of reasons given for attacking iraq was a QUESTION ("help me out here" is ASKING FOR responses people!) Jersey said he doesnt care if there are any weapons of mass distruction. Thats not the only reason to invade a country. I presented other reasons why you might want to invade a country but none of them really make enough sense to me to allow for invasion in the first place. Now weapons of mass destruction in the hand of terrorists IS a good enough reason (in my opinion) to invade a rouge country. So my comments were meant to say ok well WITHOUT that as the reason what ARE the other good reasons to invade then? If yer so keen on attacking posts by people you disagree with rather then just ANSWERING them (even the tongue in cheek humorous ones) then by all mines stay at that level. But Im keen on getting some answers myself.

[Beruthiel's cat]

Right, Lizra!! I don't think returning soldiers will be met with any coldness or hostility. I think most people understand the debt they owe to the military and are grateful for the sacrifices made daily by our troops.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Insidious Rex
Please spare me your "if you dare question our government then get the hell out" attitude. thats a sad reaction to my tongue in cheek commentary about the purpose of this occupation and frankly you know nothing of my personal views on my country or what i believe is right or not right. So keep your jingoistic preaching to yourself.

I see it doesn't feel quite so good when the tables are turned - does it? Maybe you should remember that everytime you try to reword things that I say. Or make statements concerning my feelings when you know nothing about me other than in a couple of threads.

I presented other reasons why you might want to invade a country but none of them really make enough sense to me to allow for invasion in the first place. Now weapons of mass destruction in the hand of terrorists IS a good enough reason (in my opinion) to invade a rouge country.

Well then did you support Bosnia since you claim that invading a country for the reasons you listed weren't good enough. Personally I think going into Iraq to free the people of the torture and to bring Hussein down AND to bring democracy to that region is good enough. We are fighting terrorism - and that part of the world must be changed to win. The people there MUST be given freedom, they must have a REASON to live. Once, yes once, Iraq stabalized - which I believe it will be - there is a very good chance it will thrive. That will encourage democracy or at the very least reforms in the other countries. If people have jobs and see life as being good - they will have less reason to go out and blow themselves up. That is an important thing. Oh - and I don't need a speech about how there were no iraqi's on the planes either. Terrorism is much bigger than that and it's no secret that Hussein was paying suicide bombers and their families.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Geesh IR, why are you getting so touchy with the newbie? She only asked you a question.

Do people understand that this war is unlike any war the world has ever known? This war is being fought for a multidue of reasons. Because WMD has not been found, doesn't mean they aren't there. That being probably the least of the reasons for the invasion although the most stated of them. The US is over there multi tasking. They wanted to overthrow a dictator that was horriffic to his own people and could and would eventually pan out to visit his atrocities and threats on other countries. They are trying to put a stable, democratic government in place, and they are fighting battles of terrorism with terrorists. Not an easy task considering that many of these insurgents, loyalists, etc. are determined to fight in ways that are deceptive, such as disguising themselves like normal civilians and driving up to coalition checkpoints and detinating explosives, or as I said, fighting in holy places to avoid retaliation because of damage. When they resort to such tactics, it's a little hard to tell the good guys from the bad guys. So it only stands to reason that some innocent people will get caught up in the crossfire. But my point is: is this a war? Yes it is. to liberate the Iraqis and hopefully will help stablize the middle east. Is it aslo a war on terrorism? Yes it is. And when fighting the aspects of the war on terrorism, the GC does not apply. As I said, it is unlike any war that has ever been fought.

[BeardofPants]

Hi Beor! ::waves:: I want you to know that - regardless of my personal beliefs of the invasion of iraq - I believe that you guys are doing an important job. I was against the Iraq war, but now that you guys are there, I believe that you need to stay on to see it through, and help stabilise the region, which ultimately, I believe you guys can do. I have a great deal of respect for what you do as well; I certainly know that I couldn't jump into a regional hotspot like that where the enemy is not clearly defined. Kudos to you, and your friends over there. As per my earlier post I, like Beruthiel's Cat, don't believe these tortures were by any other than a select few individuals, and I think they were ordered to by higher up authorities, so I don't think this reflects on the US army as a whole. Stay safe!

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
As per my earlier post I, like Beruthiel's Cat, don't believe these tortures were by any other than a select few individuals, and I think they were ordered to by higher up authorities, so I don't think this reflects on the US army as a whole.

Don't you think that if they were ordered from higher up - that it would be more wide spread. This isn't the ONLY jail in Iraq. I assume by higher ups you are referring to Rumsfeld. I have no doubt that it goes at least one step above the soldiers - I just don't feel it goes as high up as you seem to indicate in your post. If it did go higher up - then it would be a military wide thing - which by your own admission you don't think it is.

[BeardofPants]

Hey Beor, perhaps you could read Dune to while away the time over there. It's got sand in it. Seriously man, read Dune, or I'll chop it off and feed it to the goats.

[Ruinel]

[POST DELETED]

Do any of you bother reading the administrative warnings?

Last edited by Sister Golden Hair

[Ruinel]

Originally posted by Beor
...A senator got on TV a few days ago and said some pretty bad things about the military and the job we have been doing over here, and I wished that I could have ripped out his throat. He didnt even wait till I returned to spit on me.

Not to worry, Beor... this senator is only jumping on the bandwagon to put him/herself up, politically.

We (the American people) KNOW it is not ALL of the soldiers... not even most... but a few [EDITED]. We (the American people) are not spitting on you or the others. However, we KNOW that something like this was either allowed by design... or allowed because someone above them was inept. Either way, he/she should be brought down. And ALL of them, military and contractors, higher-ups and or not, should be tried in a court of law... be it military or civilian... I don't care... but they (ALL OF THEM) have RUINED the American reputation for many years to come. As an American, that really PISSES ME OFF!!!!!!! But what pisses me off more, is that the higher-ups will not even be charged, I'm sure. How could Washington not know about any of this?

Last edited by Sister Golden Hair