11-11-2002, 11:53 AM | #501 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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If it is possible for entire regions to change their climate and vegetation in such ways, it would seem to me likely that the fauna (which have legs, fins and wings, unlike plants - except ents of course) would follow to the areas which suited their form and function. "Follow" may even be a contentious word; from evolutionary first principles, they would die out in all areas except those which suited them. Also, there is no biological reason why a relatively small vestigial population of (say) elephants couldn't expand to fill a new, vacant niche in a relatively short period of time (hundreds rather than thousands of years). Are you saying that there were NO (say) elephant-friendly environments during these periods? If so, I think the onus is on you to come up with some better evidence than a suggestion to search on Google. |
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11-11-2002, 12:18 PM | #502 | |
Hobbit
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Re: Re: Chance or design?
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Doesn't this externalise love, taking it beyond the individual? In turn, doesn't this process reduce the individual's responsibility in the matter of morality, thereby permitting the rank hypocrisy which has characterised the practice of religion throughout history? [/QUOTE] I really don't see this as externalizing love, not if God put a part of His nature in us (i.e. made man and woman in God's image). And, if a person can turn to God for help in the area of morality, I think it increases rather than decreases that person's responsibility. On the other hand, thinking that a person is simply the product of his or her genes and environment seems to diminish personal responsibility. However, I am very open to hearing alternative views than these. Again -- very sorry if I offended you. |
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11-11-2002, 01:04 PM | #503 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Re: Re: Re: Chance or design?
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Anyway, I absolutely agree with Methuselah - I think that "thinking that a person is simply the product of his or her genes and environment seems to diminish personal responsibility." BTW, do you notice that the Christians here are very concerned about offending others? (I don't recall seeing th. of ev. people saying things like "I'm sorry if I offended you"). That's because we see you as created beings of great worth and wish to treat you with great dignity. (BTW, we can be greatly concerned about treating you with dignity and still discuss what we consider to be truthful with great vigor - the two are not incompatible. Treating others with love does not mean being spineless.) AND I will say that OVERALL, EVERYONE here has been very courteous and considerate of others, which is why this has been a good discussion, and I hope people of both viewpoints have learned things. Please don't take my mentioning the "sorry if I offended you" concern as th. of ev. people NOT being concerned, I certainly do NOT mean that. I just find it interesting that the Christians are more visibly concerned.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-11-2002, 01:14 PM | #504 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Chance or design?
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-11-2002, 01:19 PM | #505 |
Elf Lord
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The Patchwork Theory
Dunadan, I was giving my source of information, and you don't seem to be arguing my dates or the accuracy of what I'm saying.
There are, I think, sufficient problems with your theory, Dunadan, and sufficient lack of evidence to discount it. You're basically saying that there are oases out there in which the creatures survive over the thousands of years until it's their time to thrive. First of all, let's look at this from the environmental standpoint. There isn't any reason to believe that such oases existed, no evidence of any such patches of lush in the desert. Also, there is evidence during the period of 18,000 years ago and 20,000 years ago of an extra difficult time so tough that they don't even find much in the way of desert creatures surviving during that period. It seems unlikely that these patches you suggest could have endured such circumstances when other creatures didn't. Second, let's look at it from the nature of the animals. You're assuming that many, many grassland and lush countryside creatures were lucky enough to get into these patches. So, we'll assume that by some lucky chance they got in. Now what? They have enormous difficulties over the available space (Which is very limited). These are large quantities of species cramped into tiny spaces and expected to live in quiet harmony for thousands of years until they can emerge to take over the world. These creatures aren't going to be living in harmony. There will be massive competition over available resources (Which are extremely limited), indeed enough that I think many of the species would have gone extinct. Third, this is like assuming a Noah's ark without even the Bible to go on! And not only one, but two. You also have the desert creatures having to have survived in such "oases" of desert during the 125,000-120,000 year period. During that period there is no evidence at all of any desert life. Fourth, we have to assume that the environmental shifts that we've observed in these places and others around the world aren't all the result of some extraordinary phenomena enclosed in the last million years. By extrapolation, it seems logical that what we're observing has happened thousands of times throughout the years since the beginning of life. That the creatures always tended to survive by oases throughout history seems a somewhat pathetic solution in the face of the enormous forces at work. Fifth, for examples of the past, let's look at the present, shall we? Nowadays we see evidence of Natural Selection, something that your model completely ignores. We see little evidence in the current deserts and jungles of these little patches of desert in which desert creatures survive the powers of environmental change. On the contrary, there aren't really any oases in these areas, and there aren't any deserts in jungles. Your theory also includes that the creatures might have lived on a grassland area that changed slowly, and that these creatures followed the grass. Samples taken show that throughout the entire stretch of deserts throughout the Sahara to the Gobi deserts show consistency, that everything was changing at the same time. |
11-11-2002, 01:22 PM | #506 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I logged back on to add a post to say again: --> I do NOT think that the th. of ev. are NOT concerned about others!! Please don't think that I mean that in any way, shape or form.
But I really don't understand (I mean this sincerely) how you can reconcile being the product of chance and time with having moral values and making moral judgements. As I said before - what exactly do you find offensive about the D.C. sniper? He got rid of some people that were consuming resources, didn't he? (Don't REACT to this, please THINK about it - can you explain it to me?) Is their value perhaps that they could have furthered the species' development? Or were they valuable additions to the gene pool? Or do they have an intrinsic value just by being people, which is what I believe.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-11-2002, 01:26 PM | #507 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I just saw your post, Cirdan - thank you very much for finding that for me! I am very glad to see it. I said I didn't RECALL seeing it, as I hope you noticed, and I also hope you noticed I emphasized SEVERAL times that th. of ev. people have INDEED shown courtesy and respect, as have most people on this thread, which I really appreciate. Again, thanks! What are your thoughts on how th. of ev. and the presence of moral values go together?
And BTW, where did you get what appears to be a post #? I've been thinking about PMing the adminds to ask them to add it, it would be so much easier than saying "my post of 2 posts ago", and you can't use the time because it shows up differently for people in different time zones.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-11-2002 at 01:29 PM. |
11-11-2002, 01:34 PM | #508 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Chance or design?
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(However, I stand by my words. Characterise means a distinguishing trait, not a universal one. There are innumerable examples of Christianity's moral fabric being discarded when it suits the individual's or society's material ends. From the personal, everyday level to the institutional and national, there are loads of cases of Christians not "loving thy neighbour", but rather, smiting thy neighbour. I for one would be delighted if the world were full of truly moral Christians, but sadly it is not.) The point is, I don't see the either/or of God or determinism. It seems that you are arguing that either the world is meaningless and developed by chance, or there is God. This leaves no room for the individual experience, free will (other than that which God gave us, of course) or choice. Meaning derives, fundamentally, from within. Whether that is biochemical or not is neither here nor there. I have much sympathy with the "God is Love" position; however, in practice I have found that it is seldom disentangled from the mythology, factionalism and dogma inherent in organised religions. |
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11-11-2002, 01:56 PM | #509 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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We don't need a god to determine what is right or wrong - we have a conscious mind. There was a time when primitive man used to let babies die that were born deformed. I'm not sure this still goes on with some of the primitive societies around the world today. In today's modern society, we have the resources to generally care for these people. But if there was a nuclear war or something - you better believe that man would go back to survival of the fittest. Less resources would be expended on children born deformed than those that are born healthy. Under this scenario - it could possibly be established that humans would evolve into a creature that could survive higher levels of radiation. The children that obviously could be born healthy and live under these conditions would pass on their genes. The ones born with deformaties and die - would not get a chance to pass on their genes (or at the very least would be slowly eliminated from the gene pool).
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-11-2002 at 01:58 PM. |
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11-11-2002, 02:00 PM | #510 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Thanks for your concern about offending me, Dunadan. You did NOT offend me at all, but I appreciate your concern. I was really wondering if you truly meant that statement as you worded it, because it seemed to me to be an overgeneralization. You obviously did, as you just stated, so we'll just have to disagree on that one. (ps - and thanks again for your consolation on the venting thread re my awful day! That helped me feel better.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-11-2002, 02:02 PM | #511 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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11-11-2002, 02:06 PM | #512 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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11-11-2002, 02:10 PM | #513 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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And yes - I think that society overall is good. Our survival as individuals is paramount - and then secondary is our survival as a species. We will attempt to save others from a burning building - but most people will not rush into a burning building if they really feel they will only die in the process. We weigh the chances of saving someone when our own lives are at stake or before putting ourselves in that same situation.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-11-2002 at 02:16 PM. |
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11-11-2002, 02:15 PM | #514 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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All these types of social development are the result of the extension of the adaptation by physical fitness to adaptation by thought and idea. The transfer of ideas within a culture is a basis for greater survival. Large brains gave us the ability to make tools but the ability to pass along the techniques for doing so are just as relevant. Moral ideas are part of the social tools we developed to allow groups to grow larger and more diversified with less disorder.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-11-2002, 02:56 PM | #515 | |
The Quite Querulous Quendi
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Thanks for the calming words, RÃ*an.
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Again, in the context of this thread, why deny exposure to this process? What is creation afraid of, if it's so "absolute"? Oh, and I did say "practice of religion", not "practitioners of..." If only Muslims/Hindus in Gujarat, Catholics/Protestants in Northern Ireland, Jews/Muslims in Palestine, Christians/Jews in the past 2000 years, etc etc would agree to disagree like us.. Anyway, cheers for now. d. |
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11-11-2002, 03:39 PM | #516 |
Elf Lord
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There's no reason to deny exposure to the process, that I can see, except for those at a young age. This is primarily because at a young age, a child is more easily influenced. Things engrained at that time are difficult for them to change their minds about at a later date. Evolution is still, as Methuselah says, at a rather primitive stage. More things have yet to be discovered about it and the current model is still only the current model. Therefore teaching these things to young children as fact can be a mistake. Later on, like when the child enters high school or college level instruction I think would be a good time to teach them about evolution more thoroughly, for then they'd have the ability to more easily discern between fact and theory.
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11-11-2002, 03:44 PM | #517 | ||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And re society falling back on letting babies with birth defects die in event of a nuclear war, etc. and going back to survival of the fittest - would that be a sad thing, or something that you would regret? If so, why? Is it "better" to not let them die?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 11-11-2002 at 03:46 PM. |
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11-11-2002, 03:45 PM | #518 |
Elf Lord
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Meanwhile, Cirdan, I strongly disagree with you about your earlier statement that the fly is a simple creature, and thus whether it can sprout a pair of wings to adapt to its environment or not is irrelevant.
Did you know that the fly has at least 6,000 lenses in its eyes? Do you know the have any idea of its structure, evolution, and growth? Complexity due to size is all relatively speaking. A human can't just look at a fly and say, "Oh that's just a fly. It's tiny and simple, what does what it can do have to do with anything?" A fly might look at an ant and think to itself, "Oh that's just an ant. It's tiny and simple, what does what it can do have to do with anything?" Meanwhile an Elephant might look at a human and say, "What is that to me? It's only a human. It's tiny and simple, and if it suddenly sprouts another leg, what does that show? It is irrelevant." Cirdan, that was a very weak argument, and I'd like to hear you bring up even a scrap of evidence which shows the fly to be "simple." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 11-11-2002 at 03:50 PM. |
11-11-2002, 03:59 PM | #519 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I completely agree with you about the fly, Lief - and I would like to add that besides being EXTREMELY complex, the fly is also EXTREMELY annoying!
And, BTW, no wonder people nowdays believe so firmly in the th. of ev. - they have been taught, from their youth up, from many different authority figures, that it is the only "intelligent" theory out there! No wonder they believe it! And even those teachers who have the intellectual honesty to say that it IS a theory, and that there are other theories out there held by intelligent scientists, can do so much by a smile, or a laugh, or rolling the eyes, to show that they REALLY believe that any other theory is ridiculous. Very scientifically dishonest, in my opinion, to not consider other reasonable theories. And creation by intelligent design is an ENTIRELY reasonable theory, based on an extremely reasonable premise, based on intelligent observation of our surroundings! I look at my computer - it is designed, not formed by chance. I look to the right and see a nice bookcase - designed, not formed by chance. I'm getting into my well-designed car in a few minutes to take the kids to visit my parents. If anyone can point out a car that is better than mine, that was put together by chance in an auto junkyard (which contains intelligently designed auto parts, BTW), then please show me. When I step outside, I'll see so many complex and well-designed things that it defies description - trees, insects, a weather system that is incredibly complex and yet stable, and people - the most incredibly complex intelligently designed creation around - and also one with a moral code firmly implanted in them, that says honesty is good, and that will (hopefully) bug them if they try to say that it is NOT reasonable to assume the possibility of creation by intelligent design!!!!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-11-2002, 04:09 PM | #520 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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By the way - there is evolution in action everyday. Viruses are one of the most simple of "creatures". One of the reasons that developing medicine to combat viruses - including HIV - is so difficult is because they evolve and become immune to the medicine. Of course it would take much longer for a virus to evolve into some other life form - but through these little steps is how creatures evolve.
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide |
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