08-31-2006, 05:47 PM | #501 | |
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08-31-2006, 05:50 PM | #502 |
Elf Lord
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how so?
... also ... is it just me or is 'stoning to death' apparently 'barbaric' under most definitions regardless of any moral relativism that may pertain to any other moral or social viewpoint we may compare it to? |
08-31-2006, 07:07 PM | #503 | |||
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Jesus' death was a sacrifice, and an atonement; it is compared to the death penalty only as a metaphor. Quote:
Let's see...nope, I don't. But, wait a minute...I don't see pictures of mangled Iraqis, either. Quote:
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09-01-2006, 01:19 AM | #504 | |||
Elf Lord
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God also says in the chapter a similar thing to what he said in the passage you referenced from the New Testament. Verses 31-32 of Ezekiel 18 say: "Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, O house of Israel? For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!" In the same way, Jesus held the just death penalty at bay, giving the woman a chance to repent. Just as he wanted sinners to repent in Ezekiel 18, he wanted them to repent in the New Testament, and he was happy to rescind the death penalty for a sinner who repents. In the same way, he said in Ezekiel 18 that a wicked person that turns from his sins will not die for them. Ezekiel 18 has it all, and it includes and explains in more detail everything you quoted in that New Testament passage. The death penalty is just, (Remember, he was the one who established it in place in the first place, throughout the Pentateuch!) but God also loves mercy. This is all part of his character. Quote:
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Abortion is a totally different story! If you say abortion is murder, you're calling your friend a murderer. That is not easy to do! By being in favor of a pull-out from Iraq, you're protecting the people you love. By being against abortion, you are condemning your friends' actions. So people have incentive to be against the war and they have incentive to be pro-choice.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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09-01-2006, 01:35 AM | #505 | |
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That said, let me emphasize to you again that I think our country does very well to blend mercy with justice in its laws. I am very pleased that we do not pay back criminals with exactly what their deeds deserve. Mercy is a most excellent way.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-01-2006 at 02:32 AM. |
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09-01-2006, 04:21 AM | #506 | |
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However, there are many important differences. The intent is one of them; the nature of the political discource they take place in is another. As you will have noticed, pro-choicers do not think they are killing babies because of how they define when life starts. A key objective of the pro-life argument is to conflate a 24 week foetus with a 12-week one or a 12-second one. These images are a tactic towards that end. If not, what ARE they for? It's also potentially hypocritical, in that many of pro-lifers, as we've seen, support these practices in certain circumstances. |
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09-01-2006, 12:18 PM | #507 | ||||||
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If it should be allowed for media to ignore the debate by only providing pictures of the worst of what's going on in Iraq, it should be allowed for pro-life folk to ignore the debate and show what to many viewers would be the worst of what's going on in abortion. Neither the media with its pictures nor the pro-lifers with their anti-abortion ad tried to present both sides of the debate. Pictures of war carnage in Iraq definitely don't capture both sides or the entirety of the situation, and neither do pictures of a 24-week old child. Though both kinds of pictures are truthful representations of part of what's going on. If one is to be placed on the headlines of major news stations, the other should be too. The reason that abortion pictures aren't plastered all over the news service, of course, is not any problem with the photos but rather a problem with the audience. News stations don't want to lose their viewers, and this issue touches many people personally. Quote:
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The unborn baby is an alive and intelligent, distinct human being. The first thing that develops and can be detected when a child is conceived is the heartbeat. Thus we know that from the very earliest stage of existence, the child is a separate human. The second thing that comes into existence, the thing that develops right after the heartbeat, is the brain. Those two things are the earliest parts of a person that develop. So right from the beginning we have intelligence (though undoubtedly a far more simplistic intelligence than the child has later, as it develops further) and distinct life revealed by the heartbeat. Quote:
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Besides, you can't possibly have seen them while they were in the womb, in the same way that you could see them after they came out. So you wouldn't be in a position to make a comparison. And even if you could, it would be a purely visual comparison.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-01-2006 at 01:28 PM. |
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09-01-2006, 01:30 PM | #508 | |
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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09-01-2006, 01:53 PM | #509 |
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OK, let's settle down a bit and remove some of yourselves from your height prone equines.
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09-01-2006, 03:48 PM | #510 |
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Sorry .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
09-01-2006, 07:10 PM | #511 | |
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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09-01-2006, 07:49 PM | #512 |
Elf Lord
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Good idea .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
09-01-2006, 08:20 PM | #513 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Then I forgot to actually do so. Go me.
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09-02-2006, 03:48 PM | #514 | |
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09-04-2006, 03:53 AM | #515 | ||||
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Frankly, I've had enough batting that one around so if you can't see the difference we'll just have to let it lie. Do you think there are any differences or are they just exactly the same? And likewise, most anti-war folk in the US would probably be pro-war in "certain circumstances." This doesn't make them hypocritical to their side on this war any more than it's hypocritical for people to be against the practice of abortion in general, but accepting of it in certain circumstances. Quote:
I shall tell my wife the next time she's nipping my head to do the dishes. Actually, I won't cos a) I'll get a kick in the nuts and b) she'll just go "well, doing the dishes doesn't sustain the life of a foetus, so I ain't doing it" However, I think you have nicely illustrated one of the consequences of the "pro-life" position: that of "woman as approved receptacle". Quote:
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09-04-2006, 12:06 PM | #516 | |||||||
Elf Lord
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You know, it's very much a matter of how the ad would impact its viewers. If it was an ad of children dying in Darfur, the picture would be more acceptable. People can protest here all they want about Darfur without getting a crossword from anyone, and the news service wouldn't have any problem with that either. However, they wouldn't present pictures on abortion because it's way too sensitive to the public. It's not a PC issue. And that is the real difference between the war photos and the photos of abortion. Quote:
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But as far as the baby is concerned, the mother acts in the same way toward it as the life support system works toward anyone else. That doesn't mean that the woman is only a life support system, but it is true that her body functions in that way as well. That is part of what it does. Quote:
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Also, if you don't think that abortion should be legal right up to the last minute, then how does the baby's being in the womb make a difference to you? Does the baby's being in the womb make a difference to it only up to a certain week? If so, what week? And why do you choose that week? And why do you have the right to choose that week? Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-04-2006 at 12:10 PM. |
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09-04-2006, 12:54 PM | #517 | |||
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That is a really important crux of this issue, since the logical conclusion of a pro-life stance is strong regulation over women's bodies. Quote:
Dunno on the latest possible date thing. I would cede that to a suitably qualified group of experts to make a recommendation. EDIT: oh, you asked about assumptions. Those that I think are assumptions are underlined in the quote below; the ones that I think are factually incorrect are bolded (sorry to be a wanker about this but you did ask ): Quote:
Last edited by The Gaffer : 09-04-2006 at 12:57 PM. |
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09-04-2006, 03:53 PM | #518 | ||||
Elf Lord
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After watching his skit, I questioned him on the subject and heard from him what I've just told you about the heartbeat and brain being the first things detected. I know that to make it solid evidence though, I'll have to do research and find a source of greater reliability.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 09-04-2006 at 04:11 PM. |
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09-04-2006, 04:20 PM | #519 | ||
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Development of the Fetus, from the BC Health Guide website:
First Trimester http://www.bchealthguide.org/kbase/t...97814/sec7.htm Second Trimester http://www.bchealthguide.org/kbase/t...97814/sec8.htm Third Trimester http://www.bchealthguide.org/kbase/t...97814/sec9.htm These handy links include illustrations. Something I didn't know before is that the embryo is called a fetus after nine weeks. It is roughly one inch long.
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09-04-2006, 04:43 PM | #520 |
Elf Lord
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I wonder what Lief has to say .... wotcha Lief
*wonders why Lief is so pissed at me ... * best, BB |
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