05-07-2003, 04:16 PM | #501 | |
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Quote:
I'd go on, but I just wanted to post something short to claim the "500th reply" position.
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05-07-2003, 07:22 PM | #502 |
Elf Lord
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Even the smallest (and meekest) person can change the course of the future.
This is certainly a key theme of the book. If some here want to argue that the characters are "a theme" unto themselves, then it seems to me that Jackson still had to design his movies -- and characters -- with this larger theme in mind. If Frodo stood out from the others due to his daring, courage, and bravery, he would have had the audience viewing him as "the special one" rather than the "everyman" character Tolkien created. I believe Tolkien would have preferred an audience reaction of "geez, Frodo didn't act much different than I would have in that situation" versus, "wow, what a hero!" The more we see ourselves in Frodo the closer Jackson brings us to Tolkien's own vision. |
05-07-2003, 07:27 PM | #503 |
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Haven't we already established that Frodo is not an Everyman figure? And it's obvious to me that Sam is more significant even for Jackson.
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05-07-2003, 09:16 PM | #504 |
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There is a big difference to me. It seemed to me that Frodo carried the Ring out of bravery; he's always seemed like a sort of "Suffering Hero" to me. Elijah Wood only seems to me to carry the Ring to stop everyone from arguing. And his mannerisms and portrayal of Frodo (his or Jackson's, I don't know which) just make him seem weaker to me, like someone who is just doing something he is forced to do, while in the book it seemed to me that he was carrying the Ring out of willful desire to stop the evil and save the Free Peoples from enthrallment or destruction of the Dark Lord.
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05-08-2003, 12:40 AM | #505 | ||||
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Quote:
Quote:
At the end of The Fellowship of the Ring (film), he has a flashback to an earlier conversation with Gandalf: Quote:
One thing you must note is that in the film, the possibility of even destroying the Ring isn't introduced until the Council of Elrond, whereas in the book, it was brought up as early as "The Shadow of the Past". This is a critical difference because in the first half of the film, Frodo does not know that the destruction of the Ring is even possible. Therefore, the defeat of Sauron cannot be his motive. But instead, his motive for leaving the Shire is saving it from peril. In the book, the Cracks of Doom are mentioned early on, and there is ample opportunity for this little gem of dialogue: Quote:
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05-08-2003, 08:29 AM | #506 |
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Excellent post, IronParrot!!!!!
As IronParrot clearly pointed out, PJ can only be accused of taking a longer time to show Frodo's resolve than Tolkien did. But movie Frodo came to the same conclusions and showed the same resolve by the end of FOTR as book Frodo. Achieving THAT was considerably much more important to the telling of the tale than whether Frodo dropped his sword in fear on Weathertop. |
05-08-2003, 09:00 AM | #507 |
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But the whole point of the story is that Frodo willingly accepts the burden of the Ring WITHOUT a "kick in the pants" by anybody! After offering the Ring to Gandalf in Bag End, Frodo's actions are completely voluntary. Even in the Council of Elrond when there is dead silence as each member tries to determine how to accomplish the destruction of the Ring, it is Frodo who steps forward and offers to take the Ring although no one is "looking at" him or in any way suggesting that he has any more obligation to the Quest than that which he has already accomplished in bringing the Ring to Rivendell.
In the film, Frodo also "volunteers", but it is more in the nature of someone who doesn't like the noise attempting to stop a loud argument. There is nothing in that scene of the selfless acceptance of one's "cross" without any external considerations such as takes place in the book. These may appear to be "small" distinctions, but their meaning is "large". It is not enought to "end up" in the same place if the means of getting there has changed the vision of the tale. And that is what has taken place in these films.
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05-08-2003, 12:19 PM | #508 |
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I think you're trying to hard to find things you don't like. Most people, even readers like us, think the way he showed the Ring manipulating people to argue was just awesome.
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05-08-2003, 12:35 PM | #509 | |
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Quote:
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05-08-2003, 01:00 PM | #510 |
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I guess, then, that I could say it is "beyond some people" to realise that Frodo was never the hero of the story. It doesn't even matter to me if Frodo chose out of free will or was manipulated by the Ring, because it is Samwise who carries Frodo up Mount Doom in the end, and Gollum who brings his own end by breaking his vow and that's how the Ring is destroyed. Frodo is, in my arrogant opinion, just the porter.
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05-08-2003, 01:09 PM | #511 | |
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However, Frodo may be in your opinion, "just the porter", but Samwise would never had been in a position to carry anyone up Mt. Doom had Frodo not freely accepted the burden of the Ring and managed to get to Mt. Doom in the first place, admittedly with the help of Sam and the rest of the Fellowship. However, without Frodo, Sam is back cutting the verge.
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05-08-2003, 01:56 PM | #512 |
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Once again, if we must always defer to the opinion of the author, why bother discussing anything, since the Letters are some sort of inarguable truth?
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05-08-2003, 01:57 PM | #513 | |
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Quote:
Frodo's volunteering to take the ring to Mordor had nothing to do stopping a loud arguement and everything to do with realizing -- as book Frodo did -- that he is less suspectable to the ring's influence and is the one to "see it through to the end." |
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05-08-2003, 02:08 PM | #514 | |
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Oh, and by the way, I am sorry that you misunderstood my earlier post. I did not mean you when I said that some of the nuances had "escaped" Jackson "and others". Rather, I was speaking of those film critics who had nothing but glowing praise for his work, many of whom declared that he had "faithfully" interpreted the original. Obviously, they know little or nothing about the "original".
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05-08-2003, 02:20 PM | #515 | |
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In the book, Frodo steps forward simply because he realizes that no one - even these most powerful persons of Middle-earth - has a ready answer to the problem and that it has become increasingly clear the burden is his alone to bear by virtue of the decision of some Higher Power. In the film, it is apparent that what remains of the free peoples of Middle-earth are about to engage in suicidal internecine warfare as illustrated by the image of the bickering elves, dwarves and men reflected in the fiery surface of the Ring (and thus does the Director inform the audience of their ultimate fate even without the Ring). It is in light of this situation that Frodo steps forth to volunteer. In other words, he is "coerced" and "influenced" by the obvious dischord that exists among the free peoples of Middle-earth and therefore, his decision to bear the Ring is no longer one of personal obligation to the fate of the Ring because he has become enmeshed therein. Instead it is presented as an attempt to forestall inevitable destruction arising not from Sauron's Ring (or even from Sauron himself), but from long-standing petty jealousies and rivalries that have nothing whatever to do with hobbits or Sauron or the Ring! The result of the decision is the same, but the reason for it is completely different.
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05-08-2003, 02:26 PM | #516 | |||
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Pick an easier target next time. You complain about people misunderstanding the book - yet at the same time, you commit what can be construed to be a misunderstanding of the film. Frodo takes the Ring, and the argument ends there, yes - but this does not contradict the fact that it is a selfless and willing action that goes far, far beyond the call of duty! There is no conflict here! If Frodo isn't taking the Ring willingly, then he must be taking it unwillingly, no? So wouldn't that imply that everybody else was arguing as to intentionally force Frodo into taking it? No! He... still... claimed... the... burden... HIMSELF! Independently! Responsibly! (puff puff, pant pant) Quote:
As for works like Letters, the reason why they are so valuable to us is because they are completely open to analysis! Not only do we get a sense of what Tolkien thought - but we are able to deconstruct and read between the lines so we can get a sense of what kind of person he was. Quote:
Therefore, leave the critics out of the equation. Their purpose and mandate is to analyse LOTR as a film - which is the deciding factor of what we would like to term "quality". This thread here has nothing to do with cinematic quality, but rather the connections between book and film.
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05-08-2003, 02:28 PM | #517 |
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So you're really complaining that the hostility between the peoples is enacted at this point instead of revealed through the narrative? It's been a rule of drama for a long time to show not tell. Tolkien does a lot of telling. If you are going to hate the movie for every time Jackson shows through action something Tolkien describes in the narrative then you are basically prejudiced against the medium.
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05-08-2003, 02:39 PM | #518 |
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Do you think the shouting match that Jackson portrayed was faithful to the spirit of Tolkien?
I did not. I thought the entire treatment of the races was more taken from D&D than it was directly from middle earth.
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05-08-2003, 02:42 PM | #519 | |
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And if the arguments of others were the major thing that "coerced" him to take the Ring (and I say "coerced" mockingly): how come, immediately before, he hears the beckoning of the Ring? Is that not a factor that awakens him to the fact that this task was appointed to him? And if he is willing to settle an argument between everybody else by taking on the responsibility himself, is that not leadership? Is that not bravery? Above all, is that not the sacrifice of his own interests? Think about what it says about Frodo's character. The fact that his line, "I will take the Ring!" settles an argument adds to his existing motives in the book. It doesn't nullify them! Your entire argument rests on the claim that somehow the book is nullified, and you have failed to demonstrate this. And one thing that Elfhelm is indeed right about: at this point, we are not yet aware of the fundamental cultural conflict between Elves and Dwarves. That has not yet been revealed, because in the film, there has been no opportunity to do so. We don't even see Dwarves until the Council of Elrond. So where else do we establish this historically-motivated emnity? Are we to assume that there is complete trust between them? Wouldn't that draw complaints from the purists who would claim that the Elf-Dwarf relationship has been undermined?
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05-08-2003, 02:45 PM | #520 | |
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