Iraq

[Lizra]

I was visiting a woman the other day, her husband mentioned the UN Inspections. She said "Oh God Jerry! You are so naive! Don't you realize those inspectors are paid off!" She cracks me up!

[Coney]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
This thread again? People, be very very careful in your discussion here. Do not begin ranting and flaming. Stay polite, on topic, and keep it flame free.

Not a problem, I only posted on this thread for a laugh If I actually believed all the stuff I posted I'd do something a little more demonstrative than use Entmoot to voice my opinions ..will still watch the discussion with interest

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
Not a problem, I only posted on this thread for a laugh If I actually believed all the stuff I posted I'd do something a little more demonstrative than use Entmoot to voice my opinions ..will still watch the discussion with interest

That's good to hear. [edited comment by JD]

[Coney]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
That's good to hear. [edited comment by JD]

Ty ...........I stated my beleifs while using another name To be honest most of the posts I made on this thread with this name were while I was drunk one night, as if you couldn't guess...........Anyhow, let me interupt the discussion no further if you want to know the other name, although I'm sure you have already guessed, please feel free to pm me

[Coney]

[flame edited due to alcohol] lol

[Aeryn]

Lol, so, you are a Nazi?
Or is he a Nazi?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Coney
[flame edited due to alcohol] lol

I edited this out because Coney edited out his flame.

[markedel]

Oh flaming what a wash. I just think this particular isn't necessary-it's not necessarily bad-killing saddam is ok by me, but the aftermath will be messy- Iraq isn't a coherant polity, Iran wants to meddle, that U.S occupation will be long and unpleasant-and then there are Kurds. It makes Israel and Palestine seem so simple and easy to solve...

but good luck nonetheless, saddam deserves nothing better then some serious cruise missile action

[Lizra]

Yes, but he's such a perverted spoiled wuss, He'll make sure that only women and children die, while he hides in a hole.

[Hasty Ent]

Originally posted by markedel
-killing saddam is ok by me, but the aftermath will be messy- Iraq isn't a coherant polity, Iran wants to meddle, that U.S occupation will be long and unpleasant-and then there are Kurds. It makes Israel and Palestine seem so simple and easy to solve...

I couldn't agree with you more...it's easy to have a knee jerk reaction to someone as evil as Saddam. However, what comes later? No one seems to have a coherent policy for a new regime. I'd be much more likely to support a military strike if I knew that a transition plan was ready to put into place. Taking out the current regime will leave a vacuum, leading to the inevitable power struggle, leading to the likely scenario of years of bloodshed, guerrilla warfare, suicide bombers, etc. And unfortunate civilians will pay that price.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Hasty Ent
I couldn't agree with you more...it's easy to have a knee jerk reaction to someone as evil as Saddam. However, what comes later? No one seems to have a coherent policy for a new regime. I'd be much more likely to support a military strike if I knew that a transition plan was ready to put into place. Taking out the current regime will leave a vacuum, leading to the inevitable power struggle, leading to the likely scenario of years of bloodshed, guerrilla warfare, suicide bombers, etc. And unfortunate civilians will pay that price.

I don't think we have had a knee jerk reaction. If we did - we would have just have gone in there and said "to hell with the consequences". There is a lot going on behind closed doors as they plan out strategy. Does anyone really know exactly what negotiations were being done to get the US resolution passed - not mention to get it passed unanimously with even SYRIA accepting? I didn't think Syria would have accepted - I figured they would have abstained so as not to piss of their Arab neighbors or Iraq.

There has already been a lot concerning the rebuilding of Iraq. For instance - the US has been looking at the ramifications and desires of the countries around Iraq. They have been meeting with the "defector force" (can't remember who they actually are). I know that they have met several times with Bush at thew White House. We're not even close to war yet and it still may not come to it (although chances are that it will).

I seriously don't think the US will leave Iraq in a "vacuum". Afganistan has not been left in a vacuum. We'd probably be using UN troops and the international community to set up a new government.

It's going to be a while before a tranisition plan is completely ironed out and the government would be stupid to openly disclose all their plans at this time.

[Hasty Ent]

Sorry, obviously my post was not clear. I never meant the US government acted with a knee jerk reaction. I merely meant to say that it would be 'easy' for 'anyone' to have that sort of response. As for any plan put into place, whether the UN or the US sets it in motion, does anyone truly believe the Iraqi people will accept it? Won't it be perceived as interference in their own, sovereign state? There is no winning here -- the situation is damned either way.

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by HE
Sorry, obviously my post was not clear. I never meant the US government acted with a knee jerk reaction. I merely meant to say that it would be 'easy' for 'anyone' to have that sort of response. As for any plan put into place, whether the UN or the US sets it in motion, does anyone truly believe the Iraqi people will accept it? Won't it be perceived as interference in their own, sovereign state? There is no winning here -- the situation is damned either way.

I agree. The iraqi don't want anyone to interfere their life, and they don't know how to live without this goverment. They will try to fight the American, even if Saddam would die. And I don't know if he's not dead yet, either. I can't believe The US will succeed to kill Saddam nor find him, and even if they will find him, Iraq would say that it was a double.

I support the US attack (if they will attack) and not afraid of Iraq. Some people just explained to me what could happen in case that someone would be hurt of a nurve gas, and more fatal gases/microbe, and that's disgusting. Like, that you can't control your nurves, and then - you can't stop crying, sweating, and the other liquids in your body get out, and you can't breath... stuff like this. I can't believe people make this things, to hurt people, innocent people.

[The Lady of Ithilien]

I can't believe people make this things, to hurt people, innocent people.

And even use them, as Saddam Hussein has, on their own people. You begin to see a little more clearly what all the idealists in all the antiwar demonstrations in all the world have yet to discover, as long as it hasn't affected them personally yet.

This stuff happens. And it's horrible.

And the world basically let Saddam Hussein get away with it when he gassed the Kurds. He has done it to other minorities in Iraq since. The longer he gets away with it, the bolder he will become, and already it has been 11 years and 16 UN resolutions. We will see how he handles the 17th.

The iraqi don't want anyone to interfere their life, and they don't know how to live without this goverment.

Who knows what the Iraqi people want? It is a basic assumption in a democracy like that of the US or Israel that there will always be differences of opinion among people, and that a government needs to work in such a way as to handle such things in as rational and fair a way as possible for all concerned.

Certainly, just as in the US, Europe, Israel and elsewhere, there are differences of opinion among the Iraqi people; we see this from those dissidents who escape Iraq or who have lived in the West for years. But the people in Iraq who cannot get out must be silent or else 100% behind Big Brother Saddam or face the consequences, which are dreadful. That is not the way of Islam, if one reads the Koran. It is not human nature, either. Something has got to change here and soon.

My senator, who was just reelected, bless him, answered a query of mine on this very eloquently. To quote from his letter:

...Of course, with power comes responsibility. We should never use military force in an unjustified way. To be justifiable, a policymaker must truly believe that the end result of military action will be good. I believe that the world will be safer with Saddam Hussein gone. Also, if a war were to result, it will not be an attack on Iraq but a liberation of Iraq [emphasis added]. A positive and progressive Iraq would be a wonderful thing for the world. Iraq is not so rural and tribal as Afghanistan. It has always had a functioning civil government, an educated population and a decent health system. While the money it obtains from the sale of its significant oil reserves has been a key factor in propelling its military strength and its production of weapons of mass destruction, that money can, if used properly, help the country and its people develop a growing and prosperous country. I strongly believe that not only will the world benefit from the elimination of the oppression of Saddam Hussein, but that the biggest beneficiaries will be the suffering people of Iraq.

So do I.

[Cirdan]

The sad part about the military solution is that most of the young men that are considered legitimate targets are conscripts with a gun to their backs. Any installed govvernment would most likely suffer years of terrorist reprisals. It would be best if the imminent invasion caused a coup before the bombs start falling. The aftermath of the invasion would be much less pleasant than the less than wonderful experience of the current Afgans. This is not aiding one side of a civil war but an all out attack against the whole country. I'm gald I don't have to make these decisions and I don't envy our leaders who do.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Cirdan
It would be best if the imminent invasion caused a coup before the bombs start falling.

Well this is what was in the paper today...

According the the Washington Post, senior military officials say the war plan enivisions seizing most of the country quickly and encircling Baghdad, giving Iraqis the oppurtunity to overthrow Saddam, the country's dictator since 1979.

The US intelligence community has said that Saddam might even be ousted before an attack is launched, once it became clear in Iraq that such an attack was imminent.

That last part I have a hard time believing, considering how well protected Hussein is. If Hussein is cornered and holed up in an underground bunker - someone may take control of the Iraqi government however.

I also would hate to be having to make these decisions.

[jerseydevil]

Iraq has accepted the UN Resolution. Of course they claim they have nothing to be afraid of because they don't have any weapons.

Iraq's ambassador to the United Nations, Mohammad Al-Douri, delivered the acceptance of a resolution ordering the inspectors to return in a letter to the U.N. He said: "We try to explain our position saying Iraq will not have mass destruction weapons. So we are not worried about the inspectors when they will be back in the country. Iraq is clean."

I guess we'll just have to see how "clean" Iraq really is.

I am surprised that they agreed to it today. I figured they would have dragged it out until Friday.

[Cirdan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I am surprised that they agreed to it today. I figured they would have dragged it out until Friday.

Yeah, after that performance by the Iraqi legislature combined with Bin Laden's little speech I was feeling a lot less... dovish than usual. *not surpressing urge to kill*

I guess we don't find out anything now until the first report which comes Dec. 26, unless they inhibit the inspectors right away. It will depend on how good the intelligence is and how fast it leads the inspectors to the WMD, if they are there.

From what I've read they probably had time to dismantle the small beginnings of any nuke program. They will probably accept the loss of chemical and biological weapons that are found since they can be made easier. The rockets aren't a terror threat and I'm guessing they don't have any more of those left than they had at the end of the war.

[Coney]

Interesting little site which contains both the pros and cons of a direct attack on Iraq -

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...aq_pro-con.htm

[Sister Golden Hair]

Iraq fires on U.S. planes in the Nofly Zone two days after accepting the UN resolution. Go figure.