Theology IV

[Curufin]

*wishes that this thread could talk about something other than Christianity once in a while. . . there are tons of other religions in the world*

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Curufin

*wishes that this thread could talk about something other than Christianity once in a while. . . there are tons of other religions in the world*

Start something, just that as a christian I could not respond threw any other lense.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Curufin

*wishes that this thread could talk about something other than Christianity once in a while. . . there are tons of other religions in the world*

I would say it's seldom about Christianity, however people flatter themselves.

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Start something, just that as a christian I could not respond threw any other lense.

ElTel, sometimes your typos make me read these posts several times.

[Curufin]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Start something, just that as a christian I could not respond threw any other lense.

I've tried, but it always goes into Bible quoting and obscure church doctrine, and while I've read the bible (once, long ago), I can't compete on that level since I don't believe in it or see any need to read it again and again.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Originally Posted by Curufin

I've tried, but it always goes into Bible quoting and obscure church doctrine, and while I've read the bible (once, long ago), I can't compete on that level since I don't believe in it or see any need to read it again and again.

How about "How the United States "Thanksgiving" celebration, however flawed and tied up with our problematic race relations, reflects an intrinsic need of humans to celebrate the natural season, particularly at things like Harvest Time."

[Curufin]

Interesting.

Of course, Christmas, Easter and Halloween/All Saints day could also be thrown into the idea of Christians trying to take over "pagan" holidays.

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

You betcha.

I would attribute some of the longevity of the Catholic Church, as an institution, to its willingness to co-opt local celebrations, and 'lares and penates" in order to gain public acceptance..

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Curufin

Interesting.

Of course, Christmas, Easter and Halloween/All Saints day could also be thrown into the idea of Christians trying to take over "pagan" holidays.

Exactly...

[Curufin]

As someone who celebrates Samhain, Yule and Beltane instead, I find this a little annoying, but at the same time rather amusing . . .for instance, the Christmas Tree, the Easter Bunny, and a myriad of other pagan traditions still exist within the "Christian" holidays...

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by Curufin

As someone who celebrates Samhain, Yule and Beltane instead, I find this a little annoying, but at the same time rather amusing . . .for instance, the Christmas Tree, the Easter Bunny, and a myriad of other pagan traditions still exist within the "Christian" holidays...

Yes, but without any of their original meaning. That is important . We took the dates of pagan holidays and sanctified them by making them Christian holy days in order to make the transition to Christianity easier for people. I believe that was very helpful to people, psychologically.

[inked]

At the risk of incurring the flaming ire of El Tel and et alia personae, I will state that it is very correct that Christianity fulfil the meaning of the pagan festivals which were human shadows on the cave wall. Once the Creator incarnates the work of renewal of the whole creation could scarcely avoid the renewal of the shadowed into the actual!

[sisterandcousinandaunt]

Oh, inked!

BRAVO, Sir!

I'm all fluttery. I love to see a point made well.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

Yes, but without any of their original meaning. That is important . We took the dates of pagan holidays and sanctified them by making them Christian holy days in order to make the transition to Christianity easier for people. I believe that was very helpful to people, psychologically.

I do think that it made the transition to christianity easier but I think the real reason for including these pagan holidays into christianity is far more more diabolical than that; let me just show you what the bible says about syncretism:

"When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.'

"You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it" (Deuteronomy 12:29-32).

God hated the practices of the heathen so much that he freely ordered the Israelites to kill them and take their land after their sojourn in the wilderness, so they could come into the promised land.

Amos 5:21-27
21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. 22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. 23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. 24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. 25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? 26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. 27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.

It is a very serious thing, for this sin in particular he brought the Israelites into slavery over and over again as punishment. Whatever they mean now, we can't worship but on the appointed day of worship: we can't have easter it is not his feast day, we can't have christmas it is not his feast day (holy day), we can't have holloween which should be common sense. Even thanksgiving is an abomination (the indians call it, thanks taking, lol). None of these "holidays" can you practice...if you are christian that is.

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

I do think that it made the transition to christianity easier but I think the real reason for including these pagan holidays into christianity is far more more diabolical than that; let me just show you what the bible says about syncretism:

"When the Lord your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, 'How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.'

"You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way; for every abomination to the Lord which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it" (Deuteronomy 12:29-32).

God hated the practices of the heathen so much that he freely ordered the Israelites to kill them and take their land after their sojourn in the wilderness, so they could come into the promised land.

Amos 5:21-27
21 I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. 22 Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. 23 Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols. 24 But let judgment run down as waters, and righteousness as a mighty stream. 25 Have ye offered unto me sacrifices and offerings in the wilderness forty years, O house of Israel? 26 But ye have borne the tabernacle of your Moloch and Chiun your images, the star of your god, which ye made to yourselves. 27 Therefore will I cause you to go into captivity beyond Damascus, saith the LORD, whose name is The God of hosts.

It is a very serious thing, for this sin in particular he brought the Israelites into slavery over and over again as punishment. Whatever they mean now, we can't worship but on the appointed day of worship: we can't have easter it is not his feast day, we can't have christmas it is not his feast day (holy day), we can't have holloween which should be common sense. Even thanksgiving is an abomination (the indians call it, thanks taking, lol). None of these "holidays" can you practice...if you are christian that is.

We know Jesus celebrated at the wedding feast of Cana, and when believers rise into Heaven they will experience the Bridal Feast of the Lamb, so we know that God doesn't disapprove of all feasts.

In the quote you provided, we see strong evidence that God hated the pagan feasts of Moloch and Chun. It's quite a leap to go from that to the belief that God hates Christian feast days that celebrate God's glory. In fact, I don't know how you got from A to Z, on that one .

[The Telcontarion]

When I was a child, about 4 years old, I climbed up a very tall fence that divided mine from my neighbors yard (*I was always climbing something). My mother caught me and was so livid. She took a a very thin piece of stick and wiped my @$$ for a long, long, long, time. I thought I would die.

The next day I came out side and saw the fence. I pointed and said to my mother who was close by, "Mommy, fence."


*Of coursed I did not listen to my mother. Some years later at 7 I broke my arm in 2 places, it was a very bad Fracture. It was not set properly and looked very crooked; it had to be reset. My arm still looks funny if I hold it in a certain position and if you look closely.

Two years later I fell from the top of an ackee tree and was knocked unconscious for about five minuits. I could hear my friends who jumped out the tree when I fell wondering, "Is he dead, is he dead?" I started to wonder to myself "Is who dead, I don't know is he?" All I could see was darkness.

When I did open my eyes, I asked "Where am I, who am I?" Don't worry it took me just a moment to gather myself and figure out what most have happened. I did not remember the fall, I think I was knocked unconscious when the first branch hit my head. I don't remember the other branches or the big flat granite stone that was under the tree for which it is known for.

My head was split open, a scare I have to this day. My hip was sprained which I did not find out until the next day, when I tried to get up out of bed, since I walked home fine. I was very scared to tell my mother what happened.

I know I sound like a broken record here sometimes. But since I have learned that I am an Israelite and have become aware, and my people have felt the effects, of the curses of god on my people, forgive me if I feel duly chastised and all I can say now is...

"Mommy, fence."

[inked]

Originally Posted by sisterandcousinandaunt

Oh, inked!

BRAVO, Sir!

I'm all fluttery. I love to see a point made well.

Awww, sheeesh! 'Twern't nuttin', Ma'am!

But praise like'n to that from you-all is mighty fine! Fine 's frog's hair aft'a buzz cut!

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

We know Jesus celebrated at the wedding feast of Cana, and when believers rise into Heaven they will experience the Bridal Feast of the Lamb, so we know that God doesn't disapprove of all feasts.

That is not what I am referring to, I never said anything about "all feasts." Holidays are different from someone having a party and wedding feasts especially were common in Israel.

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

In the quote you provided, we see strong evidence that God hated the pagan feasts of Moloch and Chun. It's quite a leap to go from that to the belief that God hates Christian feast days that celebrate God's glory. In fact, I don't know how you got from A to Z, on that one .

Pagan feast days do not celebrate gods glory. The A to Z bit...I don't get...your quote:

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

We took the dates of pagan holidays and sanctified them by making them Christian holy days in order to make the transition to Christianity easier for people.

So you know the so called christian holy days are infact held on the dates of pagan holidays, so how do you mean from A to Z...

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

..God hated the pagan feasts of Moloch and Chun. It's quite a leap to go from that to the belief that God hates Christian feast days that celebrate God's glory. In fact, I don't know how you got from A to Z, on that one .

eh?

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

We took the dates of pagan holidays and sanctified them by making them Christian holy days in order to make the transition to Christianity easier for people.

My, head, spinning..

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

..God hated the pagan feasts of Moloch and Chun. It's quite a leap to go from that to the belief that God hates Christian feast days that celebrate God's glory. In fact, I don't know how you got from A to Z, on that one .

*passing out*

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

We took the dates of pagan holidays and sanctified them by making them Christian holy days in order to make the transition to Christianity easier for people.

*fainted*....

[Lief Erikson]

Originally Posted by The Telcontarion

Pagan feast days do not celebrate gods glory. The A to Z bit...I don't get...your quote:



So you know the so called christian holy days are infact held on the dates of pagan holidays, so how do you mean from A to Z...

There's nothing intrinsically bad about any particular day. If Satan says, "okay, this day is mine," does he have the authority to claim a day of God's creation as his own private property? Does Satan have the right to say, "anything done on this day is to my glory, even if you're trying to celebrate God"? That's complete nonsense. Satan has no right to make any day intrinsically evil. He can't just "claim a day," and then make all Christian holy activities (whether prayer or otherwise) unholy simply because they're practiced on that day. Satan can't make dates evil. He can only do evil things on those days, and convince other people to do evil things on those days too. That's what he does on pagan feasts such as those condemned in the Bible. He does evil on that day, but God never gave him that day as his own private property on which holy activities such as a feast in remembrance of Christ's Passion are wrong. The idea that a date should be surrendered to Satan as his private property so that we cannot validly celebrate the glory of God on it is just bizarre . . .

[Curufin]

That's what he does on pagan feasts such as those condemned in the Bible. He does evil on that day, but God never gave him that day as his own private property on which holy activities such as a feast in remembrance of Christ's Passion are wrong. The idea that a date should be surrendered to Satan as his private property so that we cannot validly celebrate the glory of God on it is just bizarre . . .

Ok, sorry, but I find this incredibly offensive. My religion has nothing to do with Satan. Satan is a Christian invention.

[The Telcontarion]

Originally Posted by Lief Erikson

There's nothing intrinsically bad about any particular day. If Satan says, "okay, this day is mine," does he have the authority to claim a day of God's creation as his own private property? Does Satan have the right to say, "anything done on this day is to my glory, even if you're trying to celebrate God"? That's complete nonsense. Satan has no right to make any day intrinsically evil. He can't just "claim a day," and then make all Christian holy activities (whether prayer or otherwise) unholy simply because they're practiced on that day. Satan can't make dates evil. He can only do evil things on those days, and convince other people to do evil things on those days too. That's what he does on pagan feasts such as those condemned in the Bible. He does evil on that day, but God never gave him that day as his own private property on which holy activities such as a feast in remembrance of Christ's Passion are wrong. The idea that a date should be surrendered to Satan as his private property so that we cannot validly celebrate the glory of God on it is just bizarre . . .

This is a counterfeit argument because satan does not decide to use a particular date, it is man. And the point is that god has already declared to us what days are holy and what days are not, what days are his high holy days (day of atonement, day of trumpets, hannukah etc) and what days are not. Anything outside that is not pleasing to the lord; christmas, holloween, easter, all of it is not acceptable to christianity, period.

A wedding feast is not a holy day, a feast held to honor someone or to celebrate a personal achievement does not apply.