UK Politics

[Nurvingiel]

*intersperses cushion between Sun-star's forehead and desk*

I can't believe I missed your guys election! How did that happen?

So it looks like Tony Blair won a third term (as did our own ex-PM Jean Chretiten, not too long ago). Now he's in trouble for allegedly selling seats in the House of Lords. Or did that get resolved and/or is a non-issue now?

Also, did the Lib Dems do okay? From what I've heard of them, they sound like my kind of party.

[The Gaffer]

Last May.

I remember posting about it at the time. Labour won with a majority of 60-odd. Reduced, bu still pretty healthy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politi...05/default.stm

Lib Dems did OK, but not as well as they should have. Their stance on Iraq was pretty pathetic, IMO, and showed them to be incapable when the chips are down.

They have a fundamental problem in that they try to steal left-leaning voters from labour at the same time as stealing right-leaning voters from the Tories.

I voted Labour, on the "keep the Tories out at all costs" rationale. Kinda wish I hadn't now. I was going to vote LibDem or Green, but at the last minute Howard (the Tory leader) scared me into the Labour camp by calling the NHS "a Stalinist system".

I was also assuming that Bliar was going to step down and we would have Gordon Brown before too long. Still looks like a likely scenario.

[Nurvingiel]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Lib Dems did OK, but not as well as they should have. Their stance on Iraq was pretty pathetic, IMO, and showed them to be incapable when the chips are down.

They have a fundamental problem in that they try to steal left-leaning voters from labour at the same time as stealing right-leaning voters from the Tories.

That is very unfortunate. I bet a weak stance in Iraq put off a lot of potential voters.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I voted Labour, on the "keep the Tories out at all costs" rationale. Kinda wish I hadn't now. I was going to vote LibDem or Green, but at the last minute Howard (the Tory leader) scared me into the Labour camp by calling the NHS "a Stalinist system".

The NHS murders 61 million Russians now? Um. *makes mental note that Howard is a moron*

Given the apparent stupidity of Howard, I really can't blame you for being afraid of him becoming PM (*cries a little inside*). It's a perfectly understandable and valid voting strategy.

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

I was also assuming that Bliar was going to step down and we would have Gordon Brown before too long. Still looks like a likely scenario.

This is about the House of Lords thing?

[The Gaffer]

No, it's just internal Labour party machinations.

Bliar stated about a year ago that he would step down as Prime Minister during this term of office. Everyone is assuming that the Chancellor, Gordon Brown, will become leader of the Labour party and therefore Prime Minister. Which would be good, IMO.

Brown is not particularly charismatic, but he says things like:

"We spend more on cows than the poor."

However, Bliar is now prevaricating. It seems that he wants to go out on a high, and not be remembered as the Prime Minister who took Britain into an illegal and immoral war, then jumped ship when the domestic political going got tough.

Not a good situation. Because everyone knows he's going, he is not taken as seriously. His authority is ebbing away. He needs to hand over the reins of power soon so that Brown has a chance to get his government sorted out.

[Nurvingiel]

I'd have a lot more respect for Blair if he said, "Hey, I screwed up over Iraq but I did do some things right earlier in my time in office. Now I'm going to do what I said I would and step down," than if he stuck around just so he wouldn't end on a sour note.

Because wouldn't it be a high note to end by keeping a promise you made a year ago? How many politicians end their careers by keeping promises? Not a lot probably.

You could totally spin this! Do it Blair! I just put a good spin on it and I'm not even British!

There is no way that desperately clinging to the reigns of power could possibly end well. Just no.

I know you're tempted Blair, but no. Sometimes the highest honour lies in stepping aside.

I think you could draw a few comparisons between Gordon Brown and Paul Martin. Martin is a former PM and Brown is an up and coming PM. Both were in finance minister type positions for extended periods of time. This is normally considered political suicide, but both excelled and became popular in the role.

Is that an accurate description of Brown? I have no idea where I read that.

Originally Posted by George Brown

We spend more on cows than the poor.

These things need to be said.

(Is it a coincidence that "Anarchy in the UK" by the Sex Pistols happened to come on just now? )

Speaking of Canadian politicians, Blair should watch a tape of Martin's resignation speech, which he gave after the election. He won his seat and was therefore the leader of the opposition, but he said he'd step down as leader of the Liberals if they didn't form the government.

And step down he did (though he remained MP for his riding). His speech was moving and humorous, and very dignified. Blair should take note. Martin's time as PM ended a bit badly, what with all the scandals and losing the election, but I remember the dignified way he stepped down, which reminds me generally what an intelligent and dignified person he is.

Wouldn't you like to end your time like that Blair, eh what?

[The Gaffer]

I don't know enough about Paul Martin to draw any parallels, though he sounds of a similar mould. Leftish, principled and politically courageous?

Chancellor of the Exchequer (i.e. Finance Minister - gotta love those Shakespearean British job titles) has long been considered the second most powerful post in UK politics, and many ex-Chancellors went on to become Prime Minister (e.g. John Major). So it's certainly not thought of as a poisoned chalice.

Brown, as much if not more than Bliar, has been identified as the chief architect of the New Labour project throughout. He has delivered the fiscal stability, economic success (though of course there is only a limited amount of credit any one politician can take for any economic success) and delivery plan needed to fund the vast investments that have been put into public services, especially health and education.

Also, the Treasury (his department) holds a knife to the throat of every other department, so they have a LOT of influence on policy elsewhere.

Even if they both disappeared off the face of the planet today, Brown would be regarded by history as the more important figure IMO. In short, Brown is the brains AND brawn and Bliar is the shiny haircut.

Brown and Bliar both rose to prominence under John Smith, the Labour leader who really got the reforms through which transformed them into an electable party (e.g. one member, one vote). Smith (the best Prime Minister we never had) died before he could trounce the Tories in 1997, aged 50 something.

Brown and Bliar came to an agreement at that time that Bliar would stand unopposed to replace Smith, then step down and hand over to Brown in the second term in office. This "deal" and their relationship, has obsessed the media ever since.

Unfortunately, both men have their respective cabales within Government - advisers, policy wonks, spin doctors, etc. - who have taken to trying to undermine each other. For example, see this news story, where Bliar's henchmen accused him of using the Budget to sabotage the party's performance in the upcoming local elections so that Bliar would be humiliated and would resign.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/...743736,00.html

Of course there's nothing the media likes more than a playground fight where they get to feel all influential and in touch with the secret machinations of government, but no smoke without fire and all that.

[hectorberlioz]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

No, it's just internal Labour party machinations.

Bliar stated about a year ago that he would step down as Prime Minister during this term of office. Everyone is assuming that the Chancellor, Gordon Brown, will become leader of the Labour party and therefore Prime Minister. Which would be good, IMO.

Brown is not particularly charismatic, but he says things like:

"We spend more on cows than the poor."

However, Bliar is now prevaricating. It seems that he wants to go out on a high, and not be remembered as the Prime Minister who took Britain into an illegal and immoral war, then jumped ship when the domestic political going got tough.

Not a good situation. Because everyone knows he's going, he is not taken as seriously. His authority is ebbing away. He needs to hand over the reins of power soon so that Brown has a chance to get his government sorted out.

I think the feeling of desperation is in Washington somewhat like that too:
Bush isn't quite sure what do to anymore (I'll be the first to say that), on one hand We're halfway to victory, or halfway to hell. It really depends on the Iraqis, and meanwhile Bush isn't sure what to do about the conflict over there (though Condi is doing her job), and he's under pressure to pull out fast. That on top of the fact that some generals are calling for Rumsfeld's resignation.

I don't think Blair should, even if he apologizes for it, pull troops from Iraq. For pretty much the same reasons US shouldnt.

[The Gaffer]

* Waves to Hector *

Yes, even though I was anti-war, I think the situation would probably get a lot worse if the troops were withdrawn now.

But that's why it was so stupid to invade, from a tactical viewpoint. The Coalition are bogged down in Iraq: as soon as they pull out, Iran will become the de facto power. And as we are seeing they just don't have any idea how to deal with Iran.

Anyhoo, did Bush ever know what to do, apart from cut taxes? Seriously. I don't see any evidence of it at all.

At least Labour has given explicit consideration to succession. However, sometimes I wonder if Bliar really wants Cameron as the next PM.

[Finrod Felagund]

A little quote from Robin Williams.

"...and it's Tony Blair, who must address the House of Commons, which is like Congress with a two-drink minimum. Crazy place.

'I believe my worthy opponent —'
'OH **** OFF! SHITE BULLOCKS, YOU BASTARD! **** YOU!'
'Would someone please remove Mrs. Thatcher from the chambers?'"

[The Gaffer]

He's not wrong.

Bush wouldn't last five minutes in the place. He would be curled up in a foetal ball weeping in no time.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Finrod Felagund

A little quote from Robin Williams.

"... the House of Commons, which is like Congress with a two-drink minimum..."

What a great phrase! I love it! It's sure a lot more fun watching the HoC than it is watching Congress ... *yawn*

[The Gaffer]

Its mostly theatre, I guess, but it can be entertaining stuff. Next time you tune in, look for the dark green stripes down in front of each side. Members are supposed to stand behind those lines at all times, except when speaking at the dispatch box.

The lines are two sword-lengths apart, and the rule exists to prevent members from running through the opposition.

Well, I thought that was pretty groovy bit of trivia anyway.

[Janny]

Woah! That is groovy trivia.

But what does that translate to in mace lengths?

[The Gaffer]

Don't give me your fancy metric nonsense young man. I shall stick to imperial if you don't mind

[Janny]

So, I did consider joining the Lib Dems a while ago. I thought if I joined in may at the age of 18, I could well have been leader by now, but now it seems like Labour are the one having all the fun.

[Rían]

Originally Posted by The Gaffer

Its mostly theatre, I guess, but it can be entertaining stuff. Next time you tune in, look for the dark green stripes down in front of each side. Members are supposed to stand behind those lines at all times, except when speaking at the dispatch box.

The lines are two sword-lengths apart, and the rule exists to prevent members from running through the opposition.

Well, I thought that was pretty groovy bit of trivia anyway.

That's fun! I'll look for that

[The Gaffer]

Well Janny, there may be a vacancy for Home Secretary shortly.

[sun-star]

... or Health Secretary... or Deputy Prime Minister...

[Janny]

Resign, damn you, resign! I want to get my post so I can stash cannabis and diss nurses and generally do unmentionable things while being labled all the time as 'valuable'.

[inked]

Oh, Janny, rather you should be kept from political ambition by strong taste for tripe and onions and leeks!