The Anti-theist Thread

[Khadrane]

It could have been an elephant it was talking about. The large dinosaurs most likely did not eat grass - but trees.

His tail sways like a cedar;

Ever seen an elephant's tail? They're wimpy little things. Nothing like a cedar.

[emplynx]

All you atheists: ATTENTION!
I truely believe in the rapture of the followers of Jesus Christ, and I believe that everything going on in Israel is drawing us closer and closer to that rapture. So, if one day you notice I stop posting and thousands of people around the world disappear, please consider that as evidence for Jesus, THANKS!

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by emplynx
Show me the evidence. Nothing I have ever heard proves evolution. The idea that I came from a single cell organism that was the result of an explosion is unbelievable to me. (I know you all are going to say that the idea of coming from an unknown god is unbelievable, but I don't care.

Why do our ears look like chimpanzee and bonobo ears then? Why are chimpanzees the only other creatures that are even close to us, in terms of physiology? Why are they semi-bipedal? Why do they share 97% of our DNA? mmmm....? And why does mitochondrial DNA suggest an origin out of Africa, as opposed to Israel?

[BeardofPants]

Oh, and regarding dating, it works, tw ---.... er.... Wayfarer, because we know the the rate at which half - lives are breaking down.

PS Did anyone see "Ice Age"? It's such a CUTE movie!! Cute little neandertal babies, and cute fuzzy mammoths, and sneaky Sabre-tooths... and ... Oh, that's right, some of you don't believe in that stuff.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by emplynx
All you atheists: ATTENTION!
I truely believe in the rapture of the followers of Jesus Christ, and I believe that everything going on in Israel is drawing us closer and closer to that rapture. So, if one day you notice I stop posting and thousands of people around the world disappear, please consider that as evidence for Jesus, THANKS!

RIGHT.....

Wouldn't it more likely be a mass-extinction?

[emplynx]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
PS Did anyone see "Ice Age"? It's such a CUTE movie!! Cute little neandertal babies, and cute fuzzy mammoths, and sneaky Sabre-tooths... and ... Oh, that's right, some of you don't believe in that stuff.

I saw it. It was good!

Originally posted by BeardofPants
RIGHT.....
Wouldn't it more likely be a mass-extinction?

I think you evolutionists would consider it survival of the fitest.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by emplynx

I think you evolutionists would consider it survival of the fitest.

I'm gonna go with mass-extinction. Since it is survival of the fittest, and you will all have disappeared...

[HOBBIT]

I think you evolutionists would consider it survival of the fitest.

Wait a second, if thats the case then the ppl still on the earth would be the ppl that have survived.


Emplynx, do you have anything to say to this:
You believe that this Jesus guy is the Mesiah and is coming back to the earth, right? Well, that belief is flawed because how can you know if its really Jesus? hmmm? If some guy dressed in biblical clothes started saying that he was Jesus he would be thrown into a mental institute! You know how many loonies there are in mental institutes who think they are Jesus? Well, I don't know. But I would garuntee that there are thousands. Fact is, you wouldn't know. And with technology as it is and special effects, anyone can make the great feats that would in the past (er thousand years ago) make a common person to believe the guy to be a god or something.

Know how many recent religons have sprung up within the last 100 years or so? I don't know..prolly thousands... But thats not the point. The point is that really none of them catch on anymore. All the major religons are thousands of years old. There have been a lot of cults, but those don't really have a lot of members and they all kill themselves usally.

Thing is, in our society no one is so gullible anymore....Everyone questions everything. which is why there are so many non-believers. We are in an age of science, proof, evidence, facts. If you were not born into that religion, would you still believe what you believe? You may or may not say "yes, of course," but the answer is no, you wouldn't. As a child, kids are told millions of things, and they are told to except them as fact. They don't as for proof or evidence. This stays with them. Kids believe almost everything that they are told. Like when they learn the colors, etc, they just except red to be red. Its really easy to make an impression on a kid and to confuse them Its always fun confusing my little cousin. I tell her that Benjamin is Tristan. She believes me. She once put it into her head that my name was "olive" and that my other cousin was called "pooppy" Not saying that all of you are brainwashed or anything. :P

Emplyxn, there is tons of proof of evolution. The other week I was watching the news and there was this new story about how they found a skull of some species of extinct human that is more closely related to us than er homo-erectus and cromagons. This proved that we were related to apes..or something. I don't know the details. Point is, there is more and more proof and evidence of evolution. Horses are a good example. They have horse records and bones of all the older types of horses that clearly show how the horse evolved. It used to be extremely small and had three hooves. It then got larger over time, and the hoolves became two and then eventually one. I really don't know much about evolution though

There is so much proof and evidence supporting evolution and the creation of the universe, etc. Scientists are finding out more and more everyday about ourselves, the earth, and the universe. we are not finding anything more about god. There is zero proof that a god exists. You just have faith and believe that he exists. Why? I dunno, seems silly to me.
Ack I forgot what else I was going to say. oh well

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Emplyxn, there is tons of proof of evolution. The other week I was watching the news and there was this new story about how they found a skull of some species of extinct human that is more closely related to us than er homo-erectus and cromagons. This proved that we were related to apes..or something. I don't know the details.

Was it Homo heidelbergensis?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by HOBBIT

Thing is, in our society no one is so gullible anymore....Everyone questions everything. which is why there are so many non-believers. We are in an age of science, proof, evidence, facts. If you were not born into that religion, would you still believe what you believe? You may or may not say "yes, of course," but the answer is no, you wouldn't. As a child, kids are told millions of things, and they are told to except them as fact. They don't as for proof or evidence. This stays with them. Kids believe almost everything that they are told. Like when they learn the colors, etc, they just except red to be red. Its really easy to make an impression on a kid and to confuse them Its always fun confusing my little cousin. I tell her that Benjamin is Tristan. She believes me. She once put it into her head that my name was "olive" and that my other cousin was called "pooppy" Not saying that all of you are brainwashed or anything. :P

yes I agree most people believe the way they do because that is how they were rasied. I was not raised to be atheist though. I was raised in the Catholic Church - but to me the bible didn't make any sense. True "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" makes sense - there are things that can be taken form the bible. But the whole god and saviour thing just doesn't make sense.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil


yes I agree most people believe the way they do because that is how they were rasied. I was not raised to be atheist though. I was raised in the Catholic Church - but to me the bible didn't make any sense. True "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" makes sense - there are things that can be taken form the bible. But the whole god and saviour thing just doesn't make sense.

Ditto (except for the catholic part).

[Earniel]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
However, it's impossible to say that it does prove the age of the earth, because we don't know how much of each element was there to begin with, whether any of either was added, or if the rate of decay has changed. So you can't say defenitively that the earth is X years old.

The exact age of the world is perhaps difficult determine. But we have at least a plausible estimate. There are very little things that are 100% correct or 100% accurate. Isn't it the some thing with faith? You have no way of knowing of all you believe is 100% correct. But you decide at a certain point that there is enough for you to believe in. Why see science differently?

Originally posted by Wayfarer
On the other hand, I've heard creationist arguements from gradualism that are equally plausable.[/B]

Call me dumb, just what is gradualism?

Originally posted by Wayfarer
Another one was the sun's diameter, which shrinks at a fairly constant rate. Projecting that back in time, the sun should supposedly have enveloped the earth a few billion years ago. [/B]

Lost me here, I always thought she would grow, become a white giant, envelop the earth and go supenova eventually. Thinking the sun enveloped the earth long ago and then retreated is somehow weird from my point of view.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
There are species and organisms that are physiologyically similar?
This, first, does not prove that they had a common ancestor, and, secondly, does not give any reason to believe in the divergence of all species even if it did.[/B]

You base your disbelief in evolution on the idea of one and only common ancestor? Am I right? But there is still more to evolution than that?

Originally posted by Wayfarer
My final statement- Evolution was not particularly convincing even before I became a Christian, and it remains popular only with people who wish to stick with a naturalistic or humanistic philosophy at all costs. [/B]

Stick is a bit over the top I believe. I think any one who believes in evolution is willing to change his/her views on the current evolutiontheory if other evidence is found. Something I think is less common with people who believe in god (no offence)

Just one thought: Why is it either god or evolution? Who says they can't both excist?

[afro-elf]

Originally posted by emplynx
All you atheists: ATTENTION!
I truely believe in the rapture of the followers of Jesus Christ, and I believe that everything going on in Israel is drawing us closer and closer to that rapture. So, if one day you notice I stop posting and thousands of people around the world disappear, please consider that as evidence for Jesus, THANKS!

That IS proof something tangible

[emplynx]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Emplynx, do you have anything to say to this:
You believe that this Jesus guy is the Mesiah and is coming back to the earth, right? Well, that belief is flawed because how can you know if its really Jesus? hmmm? If some guy dressed in biblical clothes started saying that he was Jesus he would be thrown into a mental institute! You know how many loonies there are in mental institutes who think they are Jesus? Well, I don't know. But I would garuntee that there are thousands. Fact is, you wouldn't know. And with technology as it is and special effects, anyone can make the great feats that would in the past (er thousand years ago) make a common person to believe the guy to be a god or something.

I believe this,

Matthew 24

30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
32"Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near.

The Bible makes it clear that we will know when he comes. It also says that

Mark 13:6
Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many.

I didn't expect you all to take this theory well, but I still believe it and if myself and thousands of other dissappear, you know where we are and you can come and join us!

HOBBIT, I don't believe that the "proof" for evolution is substantial. It goes against natural laws, and most of the "evidence" they use isn't complete. Evolutionist have often pieced together bones of different animals to call them "missing links". None of the partial fossils are close enough to complete to really be considered proof. I don't believe it is possible for such complex beings as Man to be formed out of an explosion. I would think that all a scientist would have to do to believe in Intelligent Creation is look at the Human Eye or a strand of DNA. So, I am not igonring the "evidence", I just don't think it is close to being complete!

Originally posted by Eärniel
Just one thought: Why is it either god or evolution? Who says they can't both excist?

We have talked about this before, and some Christians believe that... I say that it could happen, BUT GOD DIDN'T DO IT THAT WAY! I might also ask why we have to breath oxygen, why can't we just breath water? GOD DIDN'T DO IT THAT WAY! I am not saying he couldn't, just that he didn't. He created us as whole species, not one single cell organism that evolved into Man.

[Earniel]

Originally posted by emplynx
We have talked about this before, and some Christians believe that... I say that it could happen, BUT GOD DIDN'T DO IT THAT WAY! I might also ask why we have to breath oxygen, why can't we just breath water? GOD DIDN'T DO IT THAT WAY! I am not saying he couldn't, just that he didn't. He created us as whole species, not one single cell organism that evolved into Man.

Well, sorry! I might have mixed up the two threads, they're so simular.

[mirrille]

Originally posted by emplynx

We have talked about this before, and some Christians believe that... I say that it could happen, BUT GOD DIDN'T DO IT THAT WAY! I might also ask why we have to breath oxygen, why can't we just breath water? GOD DIDN'T DO IT THAT WAY! I am not saying he couldn't, just that he didn't. He created us as whole species, not one single cell organism that evolved into Man.

I don't think evolution and religion are exactly opposed. You can use both systems at the same time. Some Creator could have set up the system for evolution, and then just let it go. I think that evolution is a very elegant model. The system, for the most part, regulates itself. The model is very simple, but the results are complex. If the Creator was smart, he'd have done it that way. If he was dumb, then he'd try to control every part of the design, knowing that it would lead to a less flexible system. It's like...would you take a pendulum bob in your fingers and move it back and forth, or would you pick up the bob, drop it, and watch it swing.(haha! let's ignore air friction for now. It's been a while since I took physics and I just have trouble thinking of a good analogy right now.) The beauty of life is that it adapts. That doesn't eliminate the possibility that something had to put the system in place in the first place. I think the elegance of life, the way it's able to shift to maintain itself, that one thing that attracted me to biology in the first place.

[BeardofPants]

I don't think you should buy another one. If you wait long enough you will have one explode out of nothingness in your room or it will evolve from a more primitive book (maybe Dickens or something...). See Anti-Theism thread for more details on good things coming from nothing!

Looks like emplynx has finally come over to the dark side.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by HOBBIT
You believe that this Jesus guy is the Mesiah and is coming back to the earth, right? Well, that belief is flawed because how can you know if its really Jesus?

We'll know. Trust me on this.

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Thing is, in our society no one is so gullible anymore....

Did you manage to type that with a straight face? Really? ]: )

People are gullible. As much as they've ever been.

Consider the story of a college history professor who one day ragaled his class with a huge conspiracy story. At the end of the class he told them to go check it out themselves, because there was all this proof. The next day, as the students entered his class hopig to here some more, he asked them tif they had checked out his story, and, finding that they had not, proceeded to tell them that it was a complete fabrication.

My point? People will stupidly believe anything that they're told. Especially if it's from someone who they believe to be reputable. Teachers. Scientists. Et cetera.

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Emplyxn, there is tons of proof of evolution. The other week I was watching the news...

To clarify my point above; You believe it just because you saw it on the news? How... gullible of you.

Originally posted by HOBBIT
If you were not born into that religion, would you still believe what you believe? You may or may not say "yes, of course," but the answer is no, you wouldn't.

That's completely wrong. Look, more than half the christians I know weren't raised as christians. There are christians all over hte world who were raised as athiests, jews, muslims, hindus, buddhists, or any other religion you could name. How does that fit into your little generalization?

Originally posted by HOBBIT
they found a skull of some species of extinct human that is more closely related to us than er homo-erectus and cromagons. This proved that we were related to apes..or something. I don't know the details.

Ok. They found the reamains of an extinct human.
This proves that humans are related to apes?

You know what, I completely understand there being different varieties of humans. It's to be expected. Same with dogs and horses and whatnot.

This type of 'evolution' is quite well documented. I don't have a problem with it. I do have a problem with people trying to tell me that horses and dogs have a common ancestor. As far as I'm concerned, that's bull. There's no proof, and nobody even has a good idea how you could manage it. Seriously.

Originally posted by HOBBIT
Horses are a good example. They have horse records and bones of all the older types of horses that clearly show how the horse evolved. It used to be extremely small and had three hooves. It then got larger over time, and the hoolves became two and then eventually one. I really don't know much about evolution though

Ok. First, there's reason to think that several different types of horses lived at the same time. So it doesn't work out into the nice linear pattern you're trying to sell me. I'm still convinced that they're either one or a few different types of animals. It's not proof that they ever came from something other than a different horse.

Eärniel
The exact age of the world is perhaps difficult determine. But we have at least a plausible estimate. There are very little things that are 100% correct or 100% accurate. Isn't it the some thing with faith? You have no way of knowing of all you believe is 100% correct. But you decide at a certain point that there is enough for you to believe in. Why see science differently?

Still. In taking chemical dating methods at face value you're assuming that:

a)you know how much of the rectant there was to begin with.
b)there was no product initially.
c)No reactant has been added or removed.
d)No product has been added or removed.
e)The rate of decay has remained constant.

Now, except for e, there's no way you can reasonably make any of those assumptions. So yes, it's faith, but no, it's not good evidence.

Eärniel
Call me dumb, just what is gradualism?

Gradualism is a philosophy which believes that everything preceeds at a constant rate. That's oppesed to catastrophism, which believes that things proceed with fits and starts.

Gradualism, for example, says that if twenty cars went by my house in the past five minutes, to expect four cars every minute aftyer that. Catastrophism says that it's rush hour.

Gradualism is good for making predictions (at this rate, the sample will expend itself in X hours) But it's not especially good for learning things about the past.

Eärniel
Lost me here...

Forget it. That was just an example.

Eärniel
You base your disbelief in evolution on the idea of one and only common ancestor? Am I right? But there is still more to evolution than that?

There is. I, and the other christians here, accept evolution to a point. We think it's reasonable to assume that all dogs have a common ancestor, and therefore all horses and all pidgeons might. But we draw the line at saying that dogs and horses and birds and lizards are all descended from something else. That's patent lunacy.

Eärniel
Stick is a bit over the top I believe. I think any one who believes in evolution is willing to change his/her views on the current evolutiontheory if other evidence is found. Something I think is less common with people who believe in god (no offence)

To a degree. Most evolutionists will change thier beliefs if a better evolutionary theory comes along. But they'll stick to evolution as a way to convince themselves that God doesn't exist.

There's an popular quote from one of the founding fathers of evolution, in which he says, in effect "I don't believe in Evolution because it's the best theory, but because the alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible."

That attitude has carried over into most evolutionistic thinking today.

But you are right, in a way. Most christians won't change even if they're shown they're wrong. What do you think the protestant reformation was about? Martin luther realized that his church was wrong, and tried to get them to change. The rest is history.

Eärniel
Just one thought: Why is it either god or evolution? Who says they can't both excist?

You can believe them both up to a point. But you can only take one in it's entirity.

I, as I have repeatedly said, find evolution reasonable up to a point. I believe in God and the Bible, completely, and so I don't accept what evolution says to the contrary.

On the other hand, there are people who believe totally in evolution, and try to tailor their God to fit that.

But you can't take both in thier entirity with out contradiction.

Mirrile:

That's what Christians believe, for the most part. God created everything and made instructions for how it should run. Everything works according to the system he's put into place.

However, if he should ever decide to abolish that system, or change it, he could do so with no effort at all.

We do believe that God gave us all the ability to change and adapt. Cold weather animals have longer hair and more body fat than warm weather animals, because of natural selection.

However, we don't believe that God put everything together with instructions and let it work itself out to what he wannted it to be. What a waste of time that would be...

[Wayfarer]

Just for the record, that was my last megapost for today. So please, could we keep it low-key for a while? I don't want to lose the thread of the conversation.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by Wayfarer

Ok. They found the reamains of an extinct human.
This proves that humans are related to apes?

You know what, I completely understand there being different varieties of humans

Extinct hominids = evolution. Each of these extinct hominids are separate species. That is, they would not interbreed (biologically, behaviourally, or otherwise). They are not varieties, we wouldn't be able to breed with them, therefore they are species. Given that there are different species of human, and everything else, then it's not much of a leap to go from that, to Mr. fossil ape and Mr. fossil hominid to have a shared origin.

Originally posted by Wayfarer

Ok. First, there's reason to think that several different types of horses lived at the same time. So it doesn't work out into the nice linear pattern you're trying to sell me. I'm still convinced that they're either one or a few different types of animals. It's not proof that they ever came from something other than a different horse.

Right on the nail, Wayfarer! Of course evolution is not linear. Just as there were several different species of horse, there were also several different species of hominid co-existing at any one given time. (East Africa's graciles, vs South Africa's graciles, and vice versa for the robust australopithecines. Consider also the Neandertals in Europe, and Heidelbergensis, and Erectus/Ergaster in the Middle East.)

Originally posted by Wayfarer

Still. In taking chemical dating methods at face value you're assuming that:

a)you know how much of the rectant there was to begin with.
b)there was no product initially.
c)No reactant has been added or removed.
d)No product has been added or removed.
e)The rate of decay has remained constant.

a) is not necessary. ditto for b) We know how the ratios work from much later samples in radioactive decay. c) and d) can be assertained from core sampling. e) ditto.

Originally posted by Wayfarer

Gradualism is a philosophy which believes that everything preceeds at a constant rate. That's oppesed to catastrophism, which believes that things proceed with fits and starts.

Actually, they are beginning to think that things aren't that black and white. Science being adaptable to change and all.

Originally posted by Wayfarer

To a degree. Most evolutionists will change thier beliefs if a better evolutionary theory comes along. But they'll stick to evolution as a way to convince themselves that God doesn't exist.

There's an popular quote from one of the founding fathers of evolution, in which he says, in effect "I don't believe in Evolution because it's the best theory, but because the alternative, special creation, is clearly incredible."

That attitude has carried over into most evolutionistic thinking today.

Not true. Most, if not all, founding evolutionists were religious to some degree. Cuvier, Lamarck, Darwin, de Baptiste, etc. Yet, they could fit their ideas in with one of religion.

Originally posted by Wayfarer
But you can't take both in thier entirity with out contradiction.

Not true. I have posted regarding this before. But I'll say it again, I would be MORE amazed if God created something that could change and adapt constantly, rather than stay the same.