08-30-2006, 04:37 PM | #481 |
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It means that the arguments one side don't necessarily point to the same conclusions when the arguments are considered by the other side.
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08-30-2006, 04:40 PM | #482 |
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If they're unborn, at least.
Earniel, since you wrote "Abortion does NOT always equal partial birth abortion", in response to a post I made about abortion images, I inferred that to be your meaning. I apologise if I erred.
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08-30-2006, 04:41 PM | #483 | |
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08-30-2006, 06:17 PM | #484 | |
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However it is notable that you consider the not-too-infrequent event of ectopic pregnancy to be an exception. Seems there are always grey areas somewhere. What about rape, incest, depression, gestational diabetes, eclampsia? What about the 60-80% of all fertilised embryos which fail to implant "spontaneously"? On the first point, there are lots of differences between the uses of the imagery of war and abortion. The intent for one: to inform people in the former case and to upset and disgust people in the latter. More than that belongs in the Media thread I guess. |
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08-30-2006, 06:25 PM | #485 | |
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There's nothing uninforming about dead babies. And how come War Pictures are "informing", but not "disgusting"?
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08-30-2006, 06:41 PM | #486 | |
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I don't quite see the connection with war here, except that it can also produce horrific images. War is a leettle bigger and more compex issue, IMO. It doesn't quite compare to abortion.
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08-30-2006, 07:51 PM | #487 | ||||
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On a side-note, also one of the reasons support in the US for our presence in Iraq is sinking so low. Quote:
Here's my question, from that groundwork. Who are we to decide at what stage in development the child deserves the same rights as people that have come out of the womb? And if we do have the right to decide at what stage in growth a human deserves full rights, what precedent does that set? It says that by our measurement of a person's brain, we can ethically kill. Racists have done that throughout time. Hitler did it to the insane and disabled. Is that the category we want our civilization lumped into?
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08-30-2006, 07:57 PM | #488 | |
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08-30-2006, 08:13 PM | #489 | |
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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08-30-2006, 08:28 PM | #490 | |
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08-30-2006, 08:37 PM | #491 | ||||||
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Basically, I consider abortion to be permissible only when the infant is certain or virtually certain to die without abortion; even then, I'm not sure. Rape, no, incest, no, depression, no; gestational dibates and eclampsia, I don't know about, but basically apply what I said above as a rule of thumb. I made an exception because as ectopic pregnancy was explained to me, the infant won't survive whether or not an abortion is procured. I really think that the purpose of both war and abortion pictures is to upset and disgust people. But the reason they aim at this is to get them thinking. Quote:
One cannot be pro-life and pro-death penalty, as hector calls it. It's an oxymoron. Then, one is simply anti-abortion and pro-death penalty. Quote:
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08-30-2006, 08:41 PM | #492 |
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I'm going to look this up in a minute, the polls (which I never trust) that show that the majority of abortion reasons were "for looks".
Lief: Glad you entered the fray EDIT: Gwai, justice questions can wait for another thread, I'm tired already, but I will get at ya
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08-30-2006, 09:03 PM | #493 |
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Can't find it now...
but this is interesting enough, I suppose. http://www.pollingreport.com/abortion.htm
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08-31-2006, 01:27 AM | #494 | ||||
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And another thing is that many people in the US now know people who have committed abortions or have themselves committed abortions. That makes it something they have a harder time condemning. Quote:
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08-31-2006, 03:43 AM | #495 | |
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Everyone knows that abortions kill foetuses; there is no need for information about that outcome. The question is rather, as Jonathan said, about whether those foetuses are fully fledged humans or not. The use of images which connect aborted foetuses with dead babies attempt to short-circuit that all-important definition with extremely upsetting imagery. We also know that war kills people, of course, but there is a key knowledge issue about the extent of the casualties, one which your government is very keen to play down for political reasons at the moment, for example. Back on topic, I do like how the woman's body is equated with "artificial life support", such as plugging in a dialysis machine or taking a statin to lower cholesterol and stave off heart disease. A male conception of motherhood if ever I saw one! While the foetus is clearly human, in the same way that my kidneys are human, it is also a part of its mother's body, right up until it comes out into the world and takes its first breath. So, I would contend that an unborn baby is a different sort of human from a born baby, because it is still one with its mother. I would also point out that almost everybody, even most self-professed "pro-lifers" (since Gwaimir's extreme, though logically consistent view is a minority view), share this fundamental view even though they may argue to the contrary. I have witnessed two childbirths, seen them open their eyes for the first time and take their first breaths. (Arien, you have been on the sharp end, IIRC!) Babies undergo a qualitative change in the process, believe me! But I too believe in erring on the side of caution and that's where medicine comes in. We should acknowledge the extent to which the debate is framed by what we know about gestation and embryology. Last edited by The Gaffer : 08-31-2006 at 03:46 AM. |
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08-31-2006, 10:20 AM | #496 | |||||
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Requesting no-life support is about convenience. Death by stoning is about justice. Is the former murder and the latter justified? Anyway many think the death penalty is just because a criminal is the subject here whereas abortion is murder since a fetus is always innocent. On the other hand many think that taking the life of a fully-grown person is worse than discarding a clump of cells. Some believe the criminal deserves death and others don't think the Golden Rule can be apply to pre-natal babies. It's all a matter of what you as an individual choose to believe and there is no right or wrong. That makes it very hard to discuss the right or wrong about the death penalty/abortion because the same arguments can have entirely different meanings depending on your beliefs. It's important to understand this so one doesn't think the other side is pure evil or plain stupid. Quote:
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08-31-2006, 12:09 PM | #497 | |
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I suppose if parallels are to be drawn between abortion and another world phenomenon, I would pick plastic surgery. It's also a medical procedure and like abortion it can be out of convenience, or medical reasons, has a similar controversy and grey areas.
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08-31-2006, 01:29 PM | #498 | |
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It's the Intent, as you say. How do you know the intent of putting pics of dead soldiers isn't as rotten as those of a pro-lifer? You said the intent of one was to inform, the other to repel, so I don't see how or why I should re-read your above post. And you say the Gov is keen to "play down" the killing for political reasons. That seems to me the EXACT intent of abortionists as well. I don't see why we shouldn't know the extent of the casualties via pictures of aborted babies. And I don't care how clean they look, either. "Oh poor sensitivites! I looked at War pics like they were my family album, but dead fetuses just knocks me out ..."
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08-31-2006, 01:55 PM | #499 | |
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My basic stance on abortion (since Im being sited here) is that it’s a necessary evil in our society. Not something to be at all celebrated or treated callously but essential that it is available to people as an option when necessary or else we have created several other problems when we forbid a given abortion. I would think many "pro choice" people would fall under this same kind of thinking. Pro choicers tend to be miscategorized as abortion celebrators by those opposed to abortion and its largely not at all true.
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08-31-2006, 03:32 PM | #500 | |||||
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Requesting no-life support is simply letting natural processes take their course. That isn't taking an action to kill yourself, so it is not murder. Quote:
Wait a second . . . if you don't even think you're right, then why am I wasting time listening to you? Quote:
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Let them all do what they like. So long as it doesn't bother my niche in society, it doesn't matter. We have to remember that for the the anti-Semites, "the reasons matter a great deal." I'm serious on that last. The anti-Semites believe Jews are tearing society to shreds. To them, the reasons for their actions do matter a great deal. So why should we refuse them permission to do what they want, but allow pro-choice folk to have it their way with abortion? If the argument for abortion is based on is people "having reasons," than anyone can get away with anything provided they think they have a reason. By the way, forgive me in all my sarcasm in this post. I know the post is just dripping with it. Also, Jonathon, I strongly encourage you to no longer hold onto relativism. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 08-31-2006 at 04:38 PM. |
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