11-10-2002, 06:46 PM | #481 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-10-2002, 06:50 PM | #482 | |
Elf Lord
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11-10-2002, 06:56 PM | #483 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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Edit: Plus it's not the only source of crocs. They should be able to repopulate environments that switch back.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 11-10-2002 at 06:57 PM. |
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11-10-2002, 06:59 PM | #484 |
Elf Lord
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But if they migrated, wouldn't that remove the need for them to adapt?
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11-10-2002, 07:05 PM | #485 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I was responding to your either or question without elaboration. My bad.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-10-2002, 07:20 PM | #486 |
Elf Lord
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If the environmental shifts are predictable over a course of thousands of years, and a few of the crocs do gain the ability to adapt to their new circumstances (With strange speed), wouldn't this gene be rather overwhelmed? These creatures would be living in new environments with new circumstances for a few thousand years, and in that time many other genes to their new location would far take priority. Migrating back and forth until their gene becomes strong in them doesn't make that much sense to me, unless their new location became also bad for them in a quick space of time.
It seems much easier to believe that we are observing the same effect there that causes the fly to lose or gain a wing depending upon its environment, and that they can change to their surroundings. Are you applying this principle of migration with the crocodiles to all of the species throughout time that have had to deal with the continually shifting environment? One other thing as well: I'd like to bring up again my other question about the fossils. That is the question about the lack of intermediate species, even though the same species is found in several different locations. It is possible that we are finding only the predominate species, but if this is the case, that still doesn't dismiss the fact that there are many hundreds of unaccounted for species in between. I don't quite think that using a dominance slant quite removes the need for all of these other "lesser" species entirely. |
11-10-2002, 07:29 PM | #487 | |
Elf Lord
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Also, after the species have migrated away, there is little incentive for them to migrate back unless the new place that they live also becomes too hostile for them to any longer endure. And in that event, there is only a random chance that they might return to their original home.
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11-10-2002, 07:39 PM | #488 | ||||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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11-10-2002, 11:36 PM | #489 | |||
Sapling
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Sorry for the delay.
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When will you provide evidence of evolution creating a ‘new’ species? Quote:
Oh and seems the whole earth was submerged by water, see this verse, Psalm 104. I don’t have more time today but I’ll be back Tuesday, and look into the founder affect too.
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11-10-2002, 11:57 PM | #490 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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jerseydevil - thanks so much for the cool F15 pic! Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner, I've been out of commission with an awful cold. No, I wasn't looking for an avatar, but I enjoy pictures - thanks again.
and COMPLETELY off the thread topic, but on the F15 topic and rather interesting- my dad, who was in airborne radar and a project manager on the F15, was talking to an Israeli fighter pilot trying to see which a/c he preferred - F15 or F16 (the pilot was qualified to fly both, which is rather unusual). The pilot talked about the pros and cons of both, but my dad wanted a definitive answer, so he finally asked the pilot: "ok, you're sitting here and the alarm goes off. You run out to the tarmac where there is an F15 and an F16 sitting there, both ready to go. Which one would you choose?" The pilot's answer? "Doesn't matter! The MiG will go down either way!!" (typical pilot answer! ) Also, my dad said that most American pilots preferred an F15, since the missile range is greater. The F16 is more maneuverable, but the F15's strategy is to keep getting off shots and staying out of the F16's range. Of course if you go up and the F16 is right there, that's a different story!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
11-11-2002, 12:06 AM | #491 | |
I am Freddie/UNDERCOVER/ Founder of The Great Continent of Entmoot
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Come back! Come back! To Mordor we will take you! "The only thing better than a great plan is implementing a great plan" - JerseyDevil "If everyone agreed with me all the time, everything would be just fine"- JerseyDevil AboutNewJersey.com New Jersey MessageBoard Another Tolkien Forum Memorial to the Twin Towers New Jersey Map Fellowship of the Messageboard Legend of the Jersey Devil Support New Jersey's Liberty Tower Peacefire.org AboutNewJersey.com - New Jersey Travel and Tourism Guide Last edited by jerseydevil : 11-11-2002 at 12:10 AM. |
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11-11-2002, 04:02 AM | #492 | |
the Shrike
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Evolution is not about enhancing the species, but about selecting for the best possible fitness. The environment (and hence, natural selection) is a big part of this process. Going into basic genetics, do you remember the terms phenotype and genotype? Well, the genotype is the coding part of DNA, and the phenotype is the observable phenomena (expression of a trait) of what the genotype coded for (basically.) So you could say that, the Environment + Genotype = phenotype. Thus, it is not really about the process of evolution keeping up, per se, but more that they go in tandem with one another. The environment is a powerful 'force', if you will, and goes hand in hand with natural selection. Also, environmental changes are very seldom sudden. They tend to be cyclic, and gradual. One of the key theories postulated for early bipedalism is one of semi-arborealism; the reason? - a gradual change in environment from densely wooded forrests, to sparsely wooded forrests, to open savannahs. As the trees thinned out (due to rising temperatures (and drier climates)), hominids were forced to travel greater distances between trees due to areas of open land, and hence, greater exposure to predators. Nobody is quite sure how exactly this lead to bipedalism, as at that stage, quadrupedalism would probably have been faster, but there may have been some reason that they needed to free up their hands... carrying food, or young? Anyway, what I'm trying to say, in a rather rambling fashion, is that although these early primates showed traits that lead us to believe that they were bipedal (slight funneling of the rib cage, longer femurs, a change in the line of balance angles, a "platform" in the metatarpal/tarpal region, etc), there were still arboreal adaptions (long arms, divergent big toe, etc.) So, from one environment to another (wooded forrests to open savannah) there is evidence that while new traits were being picked up, some of the old ones were being retained. Gradualism is the key word here. I'll also mention that I subscribe to the theory of punctuated equlibrium, which basically means that evolution occurs in fits and starts; periods of activity, followed by periods of stasis.
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11-11-2002, 04:55 AM | #493 | |
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Re: Chance or design?
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Doesn't this externalise love, taking it beyond the individual? In turn, doesn't this process reduce the individual's responsibility in the matter of morality, thereby permitting the rank hypocrisy which has characterised the practice of religion throughout history? |
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11-11-2002, 05:06 AM | #494 | ||||
the Shrike
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I really would suggest that you read up on the subject matter a bit first, before posting on it. Quote:
How is it that you are severely lacking in the theological dept as well? It should be interesting to see how you warp the founders effect.
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11-11-2002, 09:59 AM | #495 | ||
Elf Lord
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All that you basically said is that there are a few intermediate species. What does that prove? What I'm saying is that there are several different species found in many different locations. Why should these species appear in multiple locations while hundreds of intermediate species of all sorts of creatures go entirely unobserved. I think that we should be seeing less of the same creatures and more of many different species. Now back to the environment question. Between 150,000 and 120,000 years ago, the Sahara/Gobi desert chains were all lush without any evidence at all of any desert life. Between 120,000 years ago and 9,000 years ago, this area became extremely arid, turning into a desert type region. Between 20,000 years and 18,000 years ago, this area became so hot, dry and impossible to live in that there is extremely little evidence of any creatures living in these regions. That period was the most difficult during that stretch for the desert inhabitants. Then, between 9,000 years ago and 6,000 years ago, the climate changed again, and forest and grasslands spread all over the region, with only a few patches of desert left. The country then received 50 times as much precipitation as it had during the arid years before. Then everything became desert again. I get these dates from the World Book Encyclopedia and an Internet article written by E. Lioubimsteva called "IMPACTS OF CLIMATIC CHANGE ON CARBON STORAGE VARIATIONS IN AFRICAN AND ASIAN DESERTS." You can reach it through a search at google.com. |
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11-11-2002, 10:01 AM | #496 |
Elf Lord
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Now to continue my question posing. Between 150,000 and 120,000 years ago, you have a lush climate. This supports creatures that live in a beautiful and fertile land, and there is no evidence at this time of any desert life. This information is based upon pollen. The first question that this (if you accept the current methods and information) raises is: Where did the desert animals come from that filled the Gobi and Sahara desert regions? And where did all of the other animals that filled this enormous space of land (18,000,000 km., all the territory from the Atlantic Ocean and Sahara Desert to Northern China) go to? Did they all migrate or die? And the desert creatures, there was no evidence of desert life at all to our knowledge in these areas, even in minority. Yet they came from no where to spread out over enormous tracts of land, replacing the former inhabitants.
You have to assume the migration of enormous numbers of creatures if you're going to get anywhere. Let's say you do this. What then? You have these creatures migrating into already populated areas by other creatures, thus causing enormous conflict over the resources available. Predators would be encountering other predators and needing food just as the others did. But enough of raising those issues, let's get back to the dates. Between 18,000 years ago and 20,000 years ago, there is almost no life recorded due to the enormously hostile environment in these regions. Then, between 9,000 years ago and 6,000 years ago, everything became lush again. You had grasslands and forests (Information taken from the World Book) in these regions. The desert creatures largely vanished. Migration, or death? Anyway, out of the blue in this period of time, we have Hippos, Giraffes, Elephants and many other species. These forementioned creatures cannot possibly have managed to live through the thousands of arid years and survived the extremely hostile period. They need, as I'm sure you know, water and foliage in large amounts in order to survive. The nature of the body structures of the creatures makes it impossible for them simply to have "adapted" over millions of years of the same events happening in structured pattern. They had to have migrated in; there's no other explanation by the current evolutionary standard. Also in the Arabian peninsula you see no arid landscape at all between the last 9,000 and 6,000 years. Then the desert took over again, and its creatures. This actually also helps to go against Natural Selection, which says that all the creatures best adapted to an environment are the ones that will survive. The desert creatures would be at a severe disadvantage during this period of 3,000 years, and would be easy prey to the new creatures which are so much better adapted to the climate. If these sorts of drastic changes (Not influenced at all by man at that time) were happening over those periods of time, we cannot simply assume that it is only during the past million years or so that these things are happening. There isn't any reason why the time we're looking at now should be any different than that which has been since life on Earth first evolved. This implies that these enormous shifts we see today could easily have been happening during these older periods of time as well. The main explanation that I can see is migration, but there is a difficulty with the migration theory. And that is that slow evolution theory assumes that creatures slowly evolve to their environment. The migration theory basically shoots that, for they no longer need to evolve that much (Although they still can, to some extent), they can simply migrate, and they have to migrate. Species built for plentiful food resources cannot survive in arid desert climates, however much you argue "adaptation due to experience." And BeardofPants, jerseydevil, whoever out there has some knowledge of evolution and this kind of thing, I don't want to be holding a private conversation with Cirdan. I'd rather hear of your opinions on this as well. |
11-11-2002, 10:13 AM | #497 | ||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 11-11-2002 at 10:21 AM. |
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11-11-2002, 11:22 AM | #498 |
Elf Lord
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All that says is that a lack of data proves nothing. It doesn't answer my question.
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11-11-2002, 11:37 AM | #499 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There is no real problem with the changing environment unless you try to establish that all the species that were there had to leave and return and that all the species there were there before. If a species migrates to a compatible area from another then it simply populates. Look at any pacific island. They are populated by species that can fly or float. The air-born and water-born species of plants and animals are the paratroopers of nature. Coconuts are know to travel thousands of miles.
If the species that have existed for a long history are found in the new desert are you implying with fast evolution that they evolved from a grassland species? The problem arises when the identical creature is found elsewhere and at other times. Simple creatures adapt quickly. Larger or more complex species migrate. Look at the impact of humans on native species. Humans destroy, cultivate, genetically select, and redistribute species. Human activity is shown to follow herds while hunting. Even passive distribution of organisms can be highly effective. The margins of the deserts moved and did not outpace the speed of the herds.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
11-11-2002, 11:41 AM | #500 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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