07-03-2002, 01:21 PM | #481 |
The Original Corruptor
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(1) I don't believe in myself.
(2) Therefore, I don't exist. Unstated premise: (a) If I don't believe in myself, then I don't exist. Premise (a) is invalid. The premise can be true and the conclusion false at the same time, i.e. you exist, but you are insane^99, so you don't believe in yourself. It is also weak, because it is not extremely likely that 1 and 2 are both true at the same time (which would make it a strong invalid argument), rather the likelihood is less than extreme. You have a bad argument. But ofcourse, you need to adequately define "me", and "exist" Note: If anyone has completed any BA logic modules (or can point out the nonsense), please have a go at me. I've just started a BA, and I need all the practice I can get... Last edited by Andúril : 07-03-2002 at 01:25 PM. |
07-03-2002, 01:29 PM | #482 | |
The Original Corruptor
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You say you are a prince. Is there a king? Last edited by Andúril : 07-03-2002 at 01:31 PM. |
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07-03-2002, 01:44 PM | #483 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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It can't be a bad arguement if I'm arguing with myself. The presumption in that case is to say that if I am wrong I must be right. valid logic vs invalid logic true logic vs false logic It also depends on what your definition of "is is....
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-03-2002, 02:23 PM | #484 | |
The Original Corruptor
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Premise (a) is neither an inference, nor a deduction. It has not been inferred or deduced from any prior sub-argument.
It has to be inserted, unless you want your conclusion to remain non-sequitur. (a) If I don't believe in myself, then I don't exist. (1) I don't believe in myself. (2) Therefore, I don't exist. If you leave (a) out, you would be left asking yourself why (2) is necessarily true if (1) is true - whether it follows or not (because it is not self-evident). (a), the unstated premise, is the answer to that question, and it must be inserted. Quote:
According to my course material, an argument is either valid or invalid. If it is valid, then it may (or may not) be good. If it is invalid, then it is either strong or weak. If it is weak, then it is bad. If it is strong, then it may (or may not) be good. Therefore, a good argument is either valid or strong. Oh, and and argument is only valid if it is impossible for the premises to be true and the conclusion false (at the same time). You may, ofcourse, already know all that... |
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07-03-2002, 04:41 PM | #485 | |
Elf Lord
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Or perhaps they need ot be percieved by one of you stinkers... er thinkers... to exist? Sorry, I'm going to have to reject your definition/usurpation of Descartes, and ask you to try again.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... Last edited by Blackheart : 07-03-2002 at 04:52 PM. |
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07-03-2002, 04:47 PM | #486 |
Elf Lord
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Silly disconnecting server
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
07-07-2002, 10:33 AM | #487 |
Elven Warrior
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Oh I'm glad no one else will help me out here, everyone is so friendly on Entmoot.
Isn't there anyone out of all the entmooters that believes in the same things I do?? And A.E , just because I'm not like eveyone else or don't believe what the evolutionists shove into the textbooks, doesn't mean I'm easy prey. |
07-07-2002, 12:09 PM | #488 |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There are plenty, Brokenhorn, they are just tired of this moribund discussion. Everyone here is friendly, in a ascerbic kind of way. We do have lively and sometimes heated debates, but we try to confine our emotions on a topic to it's thread. Don't take it personally; I do reccommend you read this thread (and the Anti-Theist thread) before you attempt to debate any further. You will also find out who is sympathetic to your position. Try a less volatile topic and you'll find we are plenty friendly.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
07-07-2002, 05:19 PM | #489 | |
the Shrike
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07-07-2002, 06:09 PM | #490 | |
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Wasn't there several hundred posts already on the topic of evolution versus that other pseudo-science thing? *listens to the sound of squeaky clean brain*
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-07-2002, 08:43 PM | #491 | |
the Shrike
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Quote:
*squeak*
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
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07-08-2002, 01:29 AM | #492 |
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Brokenhorn4000
we all engage in ribbing, taking the piss out of eacher, banter or whatever nouns or gerunds you wanna use. Please feel free to retaliate in kind. Wayfayer and i disagree on a few threads and are banter can be quite rough but on other thread we're cool. to the others here what are some counter examples to the intelligent design argument? the things that pop in my head are false anology arguing from things clearing design by humans to things an unknown cause or that it does not support a particular diety. It could be a group of them, an impefrect one ect. anything else? i was watching BBC world here they are trying to attack evolution with this theory
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-08-2002, 10:58 AM | #493 |
Elf Lord
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Now.. do you REALLY want to get me started on ID?
Because we're going to have to agree on a few things first. Like, what exactly constitutes a "direction" or trend versus non directional, and then discuss the semantic difference between direction and [i]directed/i]. I can make an empirical argument that evolution has a direction. In other words, a general trend. (You can throw up objections that simple organisms can evolve from complex organisms, to which I shall reply, why are you limiting your discussion to organisms, when you should be looking at the ecosystems, since that's where evolution plays itself out- like any good cellular automata matrix the interactions grow more complex, not the piddling automata) What I cannot do is make an empirical argument that evolution is or is not "directed". Stating that evolution is either directed or non directed is a reference to a metaphysical abstract, and not sufficiently empirical for inclusion in the body of scientific literature. Philosophical implications yes, but that's a different matter.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
07-08-2002, 02:06 PM | #494 | |||
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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If this question presupposes that an ecosystem is required for formal evolution a priori of the origin of life then it is just a semantic pitfall. There are many inorganic environments that are capable of hosting life. The only question that remains is can life arise from an inorganic environment. Quote:
If you want to create a new religion, then can we name the creator "Nature"?
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary Last edited by Cirdan : 07-08-2002 at 08:49 PM. |
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07-08-2002, 07:32 PM | #495 |
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all i was aiming for was a few more of the standard refutations of the telological argument.
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
07-09-2002, 04:15 AM | #496 |
the Shrike
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<groan>
Not this again. Hmmmm... The good old directed/non directed argument. Probably pretty relevant to this thread, since it happens to be the "theism" thread (implying design vs non-design). But if we're gonna discuss semantics, then we may as well go the whole hog, and throw empiricism out the window.
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
07-09-2002, 03:05 PM | #497 | |||
Elf Lord
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Quote:
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Evolution doesn't require life to occur, I think you read that in. All it requires is replication and selection. That can happen in an organic or inorganic environment, not to mention that "life" isn't necessarily limited to organic environments. Now if you want to discuss origin, we can get jiggy. But origin of what? Life? or replication/selection process? (and therefore evolution) There is a difference you know.
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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07-09-2002, 03:15 PM | #498 | |
Elf Lord
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Quote:
*evil chuckle*
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I have harnessed the shadows that stride from world to world to sow death and madness... Queer haow a cravin' gits a holt on ye -- As ye love the Almighty, young man, don't tell nobody, but I swar ter Gawd thet picter begun ta make me hungry fer victuals I couldn't raise nor buy -- here, set still, what's ailin' ye? ... |
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07-09-2002, 04:49 PM | #499 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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I would think that a a directed eveloution would have to be able to pre-adapt to mass extinctions. I suppose a "creator" could have gotten tired of dinosaurs before creating them only to destroy them. What would be the purpose of intelligent design starting with simple organisms and have any dynamic flow when that omniscient being couls have just skipped to the end? Why not create an ecosystem where all creatures were at the peak of adaptability and the height of whatever could come from natural selection.The creation design seed would imply some asthetic desire to "observe" the process, further anthropomorphising the concept.
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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07-10-2002, 10:18 AM | #500 | |
Hoplite Nomad
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Quote:
* groan* I also think that there is a false assumptation of prefectly designed organisms
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About Eowyn, Does anyone know what her alias Dernhelm means? She was kown as dernhelm because of her exclaimation when she realized that the rider's headgear was heavy and obscured her sight. 'Dern Helm" Culled from Entmoot From Kirinski 57 and Wayfarer. |
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