05-12-2003, 05:31 AM | #481 | |
The Buddy Rabbit
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05-12-2003, 06:02 AM | #482 | |
Corruptor
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05-12-2003, 12:17 PM | #483 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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2a - um, why not? If you are talking about the God of the Bible, then he is omniscient, and one can assume His reasons were good! And the 'few million years" figure is ONLY an educated estimate, BTW. Dating methods can be rather dicey, and extrapolations (which is how we get the millions of years figure, BTW - it's not like someone had a stopwatch when the earth was created!!) are ALWAYS dicey!! Scientists may use the scientific method to come up with various dating techniques, but the actual figure of a few million years, or whatever the current figure is (just that the figure has changed tells you something about how unreliable dating is!!) is ONLY an educated guess, based on observable patterns of the dating materials. 2b - There's lots of interesting ideas about time that have been discussed before on other threads, both Tolkien (his creation story in the Sil) and non-Tolkien. A popular idea among many Christians is that God is outside of time, and He created the world to be in time. 3. Well, same answer as #1, I suppose. Something was here. 4. I think humans will never know this (how can they?), but I think that there are indeed bounds to space. Just MHO. 5. I believe that God made everything that exists, so if aliens exist, then it follows that God made them. 6, 7, and 8 will take too long for the time I have, so that's all for now, folks! *said in Porky Pig voice*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 05-12-2003 at 12:20 PM. |
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05-12-2003, 01:41 PM | #484 | ||||||||
Marshal of the Eastmark
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Here are my humanist answers. Hope you all get a laugh at my expense.
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Secondly, the question is stated in the past tense, and I've already given the humanist response to past tense vs. reality. In the present tense, there is a force of creation that is balanced with a force of destruction. If one were to name the force of creation "Stup", then the statement "Stup is making aliens constantly" is more accurate than "Stup made aliens." Quote:
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cya |
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05-13-2003, 12:34 PM | #485 | |
Elf Lord
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Certain ancient peoples believed the Earth was the size of their valley . Currently we can measure the size and mass of the Earth pretty accurately, even though no-one's used a tape measure or a set of scales. Does the fact that the figures from NASA or the Geodetic Survey on the size of the Earth have changed from an ancient tribe's estimates tell you something about how unreliable measurements are? The figures on the age of the Earth, like the figures on the size of the Earth, have changed because we've learned a lot more since then. Some people cling to their ancestral beliefs that the earth is very small; others cling to their ancestral belief that it's very new.
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill |
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05-17-2003, 02:10 AM | #486 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Right, I have a Pagan question: Is there much "ceremony" in Paganism, or services, or anything of the kind, or is it basically just acknowledgement of certain deities, or what?
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05-17-2003, 12:07 PM | #487 | |
Elf Lord
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I'm personally of the opinion that it was longer, though I don't think, GrayMouser, that you should put too much faith in the dating methods of the time. R*an is very correct about extrapolation being commonly used, and it happens in dating methods as well as in other areas of science. Through extrapolation, science decided that the environment and evolution both were changing at an extremely slow rate. Recent discoveries have given those theories serious bashes, as evolution has with certain examples been shown to be capable of happening extremely fast. Environmental changes on massive scale also happen very, very fast. By current dating methods, within a few thousand years massive changes happen across entire continents. I spoke a lot more on this in the old evolution thread on Entmoot, and I gave more documentation there. But our knowledge of science is always improving, and as it improves it undergoes change. |
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05-17-2003, 12:23 PM | #488 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-17-2003, 01:07 PM | #489 |
FloraAzul
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There are several scientific reasons that prove the earth is young and not billions of years old. Here are just a few:
1. Galaxies wind themselves up too fast The stars of our own galaxy, the Milky Way, rotate about the galactic center with different speeds, the inner ones rotating faster than the outer ones. The observed rotation speeds are so fast that if our galaxy were more than a few hundred million years old, it would be a featureless disc of stars instead of its present spiral shape. Yet our galaxy is supposed to be at least 10 billion years old! Evolutionists call this ‘the winding-up dilemma’, which they have known about for fifty years. They have devised many theories to try to explain it, each one failing after a brief period of popularity. 2. Not enough mud on the sea floor Each year, water and winds erode about 25 billion tons of dirt and rock from the continents and deposit it in the ocean. This material accumulates as loose sediment (i.e., mud) on the hard basaltic (lava-formed) rock of the ocean floor. The average depth of all the mud in the whole ocean, including the continental shelves, is less than 400 meters. The main way known to remove the mud from the ocean floor is by plate tectonic subduction. That is, sea floor slides slowly (a few cm/year) beneath the continents, taking some sediment with it. According to secular scientific literature, that process presently removes only 1 billion tons per year. As far as anyone knows, the other 24 billion tons per year simply accumulate. At that rate, erosion would deposit the present amount of sediment in less than 12 million years. Yet according to evolutionary theory, erosion and plate subduction have been going on as long as the oceans have existed, an alleged 3 billion years. If that were so, the rates above imply that the oceans would be massively choked with mud dozens of kilometers deep. 3. Not enough sodium in the sea Every year, rivers and other sources dump over 450 million tons of sodium into the ocean. Only 27% of this sodium manages to get back out of the sea each year. As far as anyone knows, the remainder simply accumulates in the ocean. If the sea had no sodium to start with, it would have accumulated its present amount in less than 42 million years at today’s input and output rates. This is much less than the evolutionary age of the ocean, 3 billion years. The usual reply to this discrepancy is that past sodium inputs must have been less and outputs greater. However, calculations which are as generous as possible to evolutionary scenarios still give a maximum age of only 62 million years. Calculations for many other sea water elements give much younger ages for the ocean. I'm not trying to crush people. Please don't take it that way. Just stating scientific facts.
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Atheism: A Non-Prophet Organization Yet many shall be amazed when they see Him-yes even far off foreign nations and thier kings; they shall stand dumb-founded, speechless in his prescence. For they shall see and understand what they had not seen before-Isaiah 52:15a Civil War- 498,332 dead WWI-116,708 dead WWII-407,316 dead Korean War-54,246 dead Vietnam War-58,665 dead Persian Gulf-372 dead War on The Unborn=35,000,000 dead and counting |
05-18-2003, 10:53 AM | #490 | |
Elf Lord
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I know I'm going to regret this, but...
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Aralyn [B]There are several scientific reasons that prove the earth is young and not billions of years old. Here are just a few: 1. Galaxies wind themselves up too fast The stars of our own galaxy, the Milky Way, rotate about the galactic center with different speeds, the inner ones rotating faster than the outer ones. The observed rotation speeds are so fast that if our galaxy were more than a few hundred million years old, it would be a featureless disc of stars instead of its present spiral shape. Yet our galaxy is supposed to be at least 10 billion years old! Evolutionists call this ‘the winding-up dilemma’, which they have known about for fifty years. They have devised many theories to try to explain it, each one failing after a brief period of popularity.[quote] Quote:
http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/feedback/mar00.html As for those old chestnuts of the saltiness of the oceans and the sediment on the ocean floor, they have been refuted so many times that I'll simply put in a link to http://www.talkorigins.org/ Check the FAQs
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Glendower: I can call spirits from the vasty deep. Hotspur: Why, so can I, or so can any man; But will they come when you do call for them? "I like pigs. Dogs look up to us, cats look down on us, but pigs treat us as equals."- Winston Churchill Last edited by GrayMouser : 05-18-2003 at 10:55 AM. |
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05-18-2003, 01:51 PM | #491 | |
FloraAzul
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I've heard those arguments before and they dodge issues.
Those things I said are only a few of the reasons that earth is young. Oh and don't egret posting. I like a good debate. If we keep it friendly I dont mind answering questions and giving answers. Air is mainly nitrogen and oxygen. There is much less helium. But this is still a lot of helium — 3.71 billion tonnes. However, since 67 grams of helium escape from the earth’s crust into the atmosphere every second, it would have taken about two million years for the current amount of helium to build up, even if there had been none at the beginning. Evolutionists believe the earth is over 2,500 times older — 4.5 billion years. Of course, the earth could have been created with most of the helium already there, so two million years is a maximum age. (It could easily be much younger, such as 6,000 years in age.)Also, the rate of helium buildup would be slower now than in the past, because the radioactive sources have decayed. This would put an even lower upper limit on the age of the earth. Quote:
Besides my above evidence is a stronger piece of evidence that is reputed to be lie but I know to be true. I know someone who was there. My God is the creator of the heavens and the earth and he made it all happen. And I believe it cause we talk daily.
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Atheism: A Non-Prophet Organization Yet many shall be amazed when they see Him-yes even far off foreign nations and thier kings; they shall stand dumb-founded, speechless in his prescence. For they shall see and understand what they had not seen before-Isaiah 52:15a Civil War- 498,332 dead WWI-116,708 dead WWII-407,316 dead Korean War-54,246 dead Vietnam War-58,665 dead Persian Gulf-372 dead War on The Unborn=35,000,000 dead and counting Last edited by Aralyn : 05-18-2003 at 01:53 PM. |
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05-18-2003, 02:24 PM | #492 | |
Incharge: neighbourhood security
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Sometimes i think God is behind this. But it is all physics dependant. It has to be God good at physics. Thats the theory i belive in.
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i am nothing. i am a cold stone, which deceives with the light it reflects, giving illusions of warmth. |
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05-18-2003, 02:31 PM | #493 | ||
Entmoot Attorney-General,
Equilibrating the Scales of Justice, Administrator ♎ Join Date: Jan 2003
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It is a question of explaining how the galaxies can move as they do when they're billions of years old. It is not a question of how to estimate the age of the galaxies by looking at their movements. Quote:
I've read much about these things in school. It is important to know that right now, the sodium and the mud increases constantly (and instantaneously constant increase). But if you look back into the past, you see that the constant increases of sodium and mud are not the same as today. E.g it could be that only 10% of the sodium returned to the sea during the last ice age. It could be that only 10 billion tons of mud got to the sea floor when life arose on earth. Maybe as much as 500 grams of helium escaped the Earth per second when the dinousaurs when the dinosaurs lived. What I'm saying is that you can't always 'count backwards' looking at scientific facts of today and say that the Earth is much younger than the scientists say. The scientists know how to count, it's their job. They know what things to look at, which don't change with time, like radioactive decay. All materia decays constantly (not instantaneously constantly), and the scientists know that this is a good way of estimating the age of solid materia. There is too much evidence of that the Earth is billions of years old. If God created our planet, he certainly didn't do it 5000 years ago. I like talking about issues like this. I've practiced friendly debating with a religious friend in school
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05-18-2003, 03:39 PM | #494 | ||||||
Quasi Evil
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Anyway lets get into this one shall we. Theres only one word you really need to worry about to blow this one out of the water (so to speak ) and that is EQUILIBRIUM. The influx of chemicals to the ocean is an invalid and worthless method of determining the age of the Earth. This argument has misrepresented fundamental geochemical data and ignored virtually everything that is known about the geochemistry of seawater. But then creationists are quite good at ignoring unfavorable facts. The elements ARE in basic equilibrium in the ocean. Never mind that residence times are not the times for elements to accumulate from river inflow. Never mind that plankton concentrates these elements sometimes a thousand fold or more in their skeletons and when they die they remove these elements from the sea waters. Nevermind a million other things. Just simply focus on the fact that minerals tend to achieve a state of EQUILIBRIUM in nature and therefore serve no purpose as a measuring stick for the age of the earth. Quote:
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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05-18-2003, 04:46 PM | #495 | |
Elf Lord
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At least Aralyn was polite about voicing her opinions, Insidious Rex.
I actually think this discussion is getting off-topic. The topic is learning about religions, not debating the validity of areas of their beliefs (As was said by the thread's creator in the first post). I have already debated the issue arising now in the old evolution thread, and I could enter into it again, but I don't feel this is a good thread for it. R*an made an offshoot of the "what religion are you in?" thread when it became necessary because of religious debate. If any of you desire to continue this thread of discussion, now would be a good time to do that. I think Gwaimir asked the most on-topic question to date. Quote:
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05-18-2003, 05:43 PM | #496 | ||
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Last edited by Insidious Rex : 05-18-2003 at 05:45 PM. |
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05-18-2003, 05:58 PM | #497 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But Lief is right - this topic is OT for this thread. We can move it to the Offshoot thread, or you can excavate the evolution thread, which went 30 pages or so. Lief and I posted quite a bit there. I don't know about Lief, but I"m not ready to go there again! But maybe some others are.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-18-2003, 06:07 PM | #498 | ||
The Buddy Rabbit
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05-18-2003, 06:10 PM | #499 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(1) The current ESTIMATE/GUESS, based on EXTRAPOLATION. (2) um, ok - and....? (3) Well, I certainly would recommend using the most up-to-date measuring methods available to us, and I think we've improved over measuring tapes and scales. However, it's still an estimate, altho I would say with a VASTLY lessened degree of probable error, since we're talking about something that exists in the present. (4) Absolutely. I would be surprised if the 5 billion figure stayed there v. long. It could certainly change either way, as data observation/collection methods improve. (5) Yes, we have. And I expect they'll change again, as we learn more. But they'll still be ESTIMATES, and especially in the case of age-of-the-earth, EXTRAPOLATIONS, and I hope the scientists involved have enough integrity to always point this out. (6) ok ..... and? Anyway, you guys can move this over to Offshoot, or prob. a better spot would be the evolution thread.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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05-18-2003, 06:12 PM | #500 | |
Quasi Evil
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basic christian question that should be easy for most: got into an argument with someone about how christianity isnt the equivilant of nazism (dont ask ). His argument was that god is like hitler in that they both condemned certain subsets of people to an inferno (the gas chamber and hell) just because they werent a certain way (arian or christian). i pretty much trashed his argument (yes ME! defending the christians! why are you laughing!) but he kept insisting that the god of the OLD testament IS this big mean monster basically that only devoted himself to ONE subset of people and all others were worthy of death. what i want to know is why are the old and new testaments included in the same book when there is such a dramatic difference in the point of view of the two works (in terms of god and forgivness and all that)? i mean you dont actually have christianity until you hit the new testament right? so why include it as if its one big uninterrupted book? i know its a dumb question but have a go at me anyway. just curious.
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