04-23-2006, 03:15 AM | #481 |
Elf Lord
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This reminds me of the argument Paul condemned, which said, "let us commit evil so that grace might increase!"
In my view, that's very similar to the argument some make today which says, "let us commit evil because human evolution is enhanced by pain, and curiosity comes from pain, and without pain life would be boring, so doing evil is good for our species!"
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-23-2006 at 03:16 AM. |
04-23-2006, 05:44 PM | #482 |
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More re Lief's HSpirit female thing - I just remembered Jesus specifically using "He" when mentioning the HSpirit (in John chpt 16 for example) ...
Well, I don't think God can be strictly classified as male/female, anyway, and it's clear that men AND women are made in God's image, so ...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
04-23-2006, 08:14 PM | #483 | |||||
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The Old Testament word for spirit that was used to describe men's spirits and the Holy Spirit was "ruwach", which meant breath, inspiration or wind. The Old Testament noun was feminine, according to this website, America and Israel in Bible Prophecy and another I've found. I chose this particular website as a citation because it seems trustworthy, especially in view of the fact that the site is of the position that the Holy Spirit is male rather than female. It doesn't try to make an argument on the subject, but it does assume it in its text. Here's what it says about ruwach. Quote:
The English and Latin translations of the Bible term the Holy Spirit as "he", but this choice is rather arbitrary and doesn't actually have any ties to the words actually used to describe the Holy Spirit in the Old and New Testaments. There also are other places in the scripture which I feel clearly describe the Spirit as female. In Proverbs, Wisdom is constantly described as a person and as a woman. Jesus also described Wisdom as female in the New Testament when he said, "wisdom is proved right by her actions." The Spirit of the Lord is also described as the "Spirit of Wisdom," in the Old Testament. Quote:
Wisdom is also described there as having been given birth before the world began. Wisdom was "from the beginning," "appointed from eternity," and in 8:30 it says she was the craftsman at the Lord's side during creation, "filled with delight day after day, rejoicing always in his presence, rejoicing in his whole world and delighting in mankind." This rejoicing and active creating role sounds like the description of a vibrant, thrilled person, NOT a mere attribute . IMHO. The logical next question is, "well, if the Holy Spirit was Wisdom, then how could she have been created by the Lord? The Spirit of God is eternal." I think that asking this question is missing the description of the Spirit's birth. Quote:
Then there also is the character of the Holy Spirit, as revealed from scripture, to consider. The Spirit is a Counselor, a child-bearer ("flesh gives birth to flesh, but Spirit gives birth to spirit"), a Comforter, a Teacher, a Helper. The Spirit also is submissive to the Father, as a wife bends to a husband. Again, not that they are husband and wife in the same way humans can be husband and wife, but God often gives physical symbols to reveal deeper spiritual realities. This might be another layer of the Earth family symbol God has created for us. I asked a pastor once why it is an unforgiveable sin to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, and not an unforgiveable sin to blaspheme Jesus. She answered that the Spirit was innocent, defenseless and pure, desiring only good. She explained further by saying that blaspheming the Spirit was different from blaspheming Jesus in that it was "like striking a woman." I think that this is literally true. Not that the Spirit is literally a woman, but that she is feminine in nature and fulfills this role in the Godhead. Just as striking a defenseless woman is worse than striking a man, so blaspheming the Spirit is unforgiveable. So here's my rather lengthy description of the scripture reasons why I think the Spirit is feminine .
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-23-2006 at 08:20 PM. |
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04-23-2006, 08:39 PM | #484 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Interesting!
Do you know about this, though: Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-23-2006, 08:58 PM | #485 | |
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Here's a quotation from Wikipedia on the subject:
Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-23-2006 at 08:59 PM. |
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04-23-2006, 11:11 PM | #486 | ||
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Er, what thread is this? Did "Theology" get merged with "The REAL discussion thread on RELIGION"? I just want to add that I started Theology.
Anyway, about the gender of the Holy Spirit thing, I view the Holy Spirit as not having a gender at all. Of course, seeing the Spirit as a male or a female is perfectly valid too. I think references in the Bible to the Spirit as "He" is due to pronouns in the English language. "It" could refer to a genderless entity, but it is disrespectful to refer to a person or Spirit as "it" thus, He (or She). That's my take on it anyway. (Not quite as detailed as Lief's. )
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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04-24-2006, 12:48 AM | #487 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 04-24-2006 at 12:55 AM. |
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04-24-2006, 12:48 AM | #488 | ||||
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I think of the self as some force or something comparable to a conscience, that's inside each person, giving them stregnth, confidence of character, and consistency. Quote:
From a slightly less far-seeing point of view, it is good for certain people who cannot build a relationship between themselves and their actions, themselves and society, or themselves and nature in any other way. IOW, sometimes people are too weak or too stupid to develop their own values, and they turn to religion. That's good because, if they adhere to that religion's teachings, they're less likely to do harm. Just keep in mind that I know this is certainly not the case with everybody and probably rarely the case at all. What a complicated question! Quote:
Also, you reminded me of something I'd like to address in this thread, but I'll wait untill all of your questions are answered to your satisfaction before I bring it up again. In the meantime, having to contain myself here is killing me. Probably though, you'd have been more satisfied with a separate thread, yes. You're just looking for a way to find harmony with two of your own beliefs, right? Other people's opinions would complicate that severely, I think. I just hope you figure it out. If you want, you can PM me (and probably at least a few others) if this thread strays to far from the info you're looking for. I promise not to subject you to my biases. Quote:
NOTE: I can't read past page 23 of this thread tonight. I skimmed through the rest and noticed that I hadn't been quoted or anything , so now it's bedtime. Good night all!
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Could it be that one path to enlightenment leads through insanity? Last edited by Bombadillo : 04-24-2006 at 12:54 AM. |
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04-24-2006, 02:23 AM | #489 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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04-24-2006, 02:57 AM | #490 | |
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Throughout the New Testament, the word "pneuma", or "Spirit" is a neutral term with genderless pronouns to match. However, in John the pronoun "ekeinos", which indicates masculinity, is used to describe the Greek masculine word "paraklétos", "Comforter". Many words in Greek are either masculine or feminine, like in French, and the pronouns used to describe them must be male or female to match. For example, if someone asks me "where is my book?" in French, I might answer, "he is on the table!" Since "book" in French is masculine, my pronoun has to be the same. The Greek word for heart is karidia, which is Greek and feminine. One might say of a human heart in Greek, "She is still pumping." In Greek, the grammar must match in case, number and gender. The pronoun "ekeinos", "he," is used in John 15 and 16 to refer to the Comforter, because in Greek, the word "comforter" is masculine. Perhaps when John chose the word "Comforter," he purposely wanted to also express the masculinity of the Spirit through the use of this word. However, since many words in Greek are masculine or feminine, this could also easily have been a simple coincidence of the grammar. Meanwhile, whenever the word "Spirit," is used in the New Testament, a neutral pronoun referenced it. So we can see all three ways of referring to the Spirit in the Bible. The Old Testament is chock full of a feminine word. The New Testament description of the Spirit is almost exclusively done with the neutral word, though with "Counselor," it is masculine. Jesus also refers to the Holy Spirit as "it," when he isn't talking about it as the Counselor. Though he refers to Wisdom as she, when he says, "wisdom is proved right by her actions." An interesting sidenote: "Ekklesia", the word for the church in the original Greek, is feminine. The word "church" was apparently referred to with the female pronoun "she" throughout the Greek text . One could also, of course, say that that was merely a trick of the grammar. And perhaps it was coincidence! Whether it was or not, however, I thought it was pretty cool in view of how the church is portrayed in Revelation and Song of Songs.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 04-24-2006 at 03:15 AM. |
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04-24-2006, 03:02 AM | #491 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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04-24-2006, 02:32 PM | #492 | |
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...oh well. Coney would have gotten it.
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04-24-2006, 02:55 PM | #493 | ||
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-24-2006, 03:01 PM | #494 | |
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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04-24-2006, 03:07 PM | #495 | ||
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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04-24-2006, 03:15 PM | #496 | |
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No, the statement has two parts. Part one, allows for each individual to come to their own conclusion of what the meaning of life is. Part two, as long as you do not persecute someone for a different belief than you don't have a resposibility to respect it. Just don't 'diss 'em'
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04-24-2006, 03:17 PM | #497 |
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I know, I know... note the
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
04-24-2006, 03:26 PM | #498 |
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Oh!
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04-24-2006, 04:49 PM | #499 |
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embrace paradox!
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
04-24-2006, 06:10 PM | #500 | ||
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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