05-05-2003, 07:02 PM | #481 | |
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But you are dead-wrong about the Frodo and the Nazgul in Osgilith scene. Trust me, I've studied that scene VERY carefully. He is not offering up the ring. |
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05-05-2003, 07:06 PM | #482 | ||
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05-05-2003, 08:14 PM | #483 |
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Here they label one shot "Frodo offering the Ring to a Nazgul". Just thought you might be interested that I am not alone on this.
(Hover your cursor over the closeup of Frodo lifting the Ring on it's chain.)
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05-05-2003, 08:18 PM | #484 | |
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O, and I will add one more thing:
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05-05-2003, 09:08 PM | #485 | |||
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Scrolling down this massive thread, I came across a post by Wayfarer that grabbed my attention because it was in colour. It is worth a response:
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2.) No, this does not weaken Frodo's character at all. Given the urgency of the situation, I would say that Frodo was placed in a particularly difficult situation of having to make a decision quickly. If anything, Frodo's procrastination in the book was weakness on his part. Note that Gandalf instructed him to leave earlier, only those instructions never reached the Shire. 3.) Yes, unless you can demonstrate that this change suddenly makes Frodo a "likely place" for strength and wisdom. Because it is indeed out of his own strength and wisdom that he accepts the responsibility that has been laid upon him, regardless of the fact that Gandalf advises that he does so. Remember, even in the book, Frodo didn't come up with the idea of leaving the Shire all by himself. Quote:
2) I believe the burden of proof is on you here to demonstrate how Frodo has been significantly weakened. Right now, there's nothing for me to refute. 3) Can strength and wisdom be found in unlikely places in this scenario? Certainly. For example, Merry broaches the subject and suggests the ferry as "the nearest crossing." Expected Frodo to say that, didn't ya?
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05-05-2003, 09:08 PM | #486 | |||
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2) Considering that this is an omission, not a change, it's really not possible to say whether or not it severely weakens Frodo as a character. If you claimed that it was so, then you would be arguing something along the lines of, "if Frodo didn't save his friends in the Downs, he would have been a useless wimp." Bollocks. 3) Yes, courage and wisdom can be found in unlikely places, and the whole Bombadil tangent was a pretty likely place to cut. Quote:
2) This change perhaps doesn't make Frodo weaker as much as it makes the Ringwraiths a more imposing presence, as you'll notice with how they loom over him, almost as if their shadows push him to the ground. Wouldn't want to break the flow of a nice shot like that. 3) Here, strength can still be found in an unlikely place - namely, Sam. Theme remains intact. Quote:
2) I fail to see how making the impact of the Morgul-blade stronger suddenly makes Frodo a significantly weaker character. You're also factually wrong, in that he did not walk most of the way to Rivendell - he spent a good deal of it atop Bill the Pony, as I recall. 3) You'll hate me for saying this, but Arwen was a pretty unlikely place to find strength and hope in this time of need... funny how that one sequence suddenly makes her a warrior princess, and Frodo a useless weakling, eh?
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05-05-2003, 09:08 PM | #487 | |
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2) Again, just because the wound appears to be stronger doesn't make Frodo, as a character, a weaker person. Are we to judge the strength and weakness of characters solely by their resistance to wounds? If that's the case, then please don't even presume to discuss Frodo, as even in the book, he's about as poked and prodded as a central character can be. 3) I have a lot of trouble filling out these #3s, you know, because the cited examples of changes are so irrelevant to how intact the theme of "strength and wisdom in unlikely places" remains. I suppose that holds if you tautologically define "Frodo" as "an unlikely place" - but seeing as how he's arguably the main character and all, Frodo would be one of the first places I'd look. Perhaps the key line to understanding Frodo as a character, in both the book and the film: "I will take the Ring to Mordor - though I do not know the way." The film in no way absolves Frodo of the same challenges and responsibilities he undertakes throughout the course of the story. You will notice that by the time ROTK rolls around, Frodo breaks down to become exactly the character you claim he isn't supposed to be. And fundamentally, a line has to be drawn between physical strength and courage, and that which belongs to the heart. The cited examples of Frodo crying out "Elbereth" in precarious situations are not the best case for demonstrating Tolkien's theme of courage in unlikely places: instead, that lies in his continued ability to do the right thing - no matter the cost. Watch that scene where Frodo, thinking his part in the tale was over just a few scenes prior, demands to be the Ring-bearer - three times. Is that not courage? Is that not strength? Try claiming that it isn't while maintaining a straight face. You'd have better luck juggling palantir, all seven of'em.
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05-05-2003, 09:24 PM | #488 |
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...
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Disgraced he may be, yet is not dethroned, and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned Last edited by Wayfarer : 05-05-2003 at 09:33 PM. |
05-05-2003, 09:36 PM | #489 | |
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05-06-2003, 06:31 AM | #490 |
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Aha! Score one for me! *exultant*
...and I still don't think he was merely being tempted to put it on. Maybe if other people tell us what they think, we can see if maybe PJ didn't just not make it clear?
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There's antimony, arsenic, aluminum, selenium... Last edited by Elf Girl : 05-06-2003 at 06:34 AM. |
05-06-2003, 11:52 AM | #491 | |
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"....rapturous words from which ultimatley sprang the whole of my mythology" - JRR Tolkien Hail Earendel brightest of angels, over middle-earth sent unto men Crist by Cynewulf (lines 104-5) |
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05-06-2003, 12:19 PM | #492 |
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I'm very familiar with the books, and I thought in that scene in the movie that Frodo was giving in and offering the ring to Sauron (via his servant the Nazgul). Very out of character for a ring-bearer.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-06-2003, 12:31 PM | #493 |
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OK, just watched it, and Frodo is at first holding the ring up, then he goes into that eye-rolling-hand-shaking-put-the-ring-on-his-finger mode. So he's definitely (but slowly) putting it on.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
05-06-2003, 03:24 PM | #494 |
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For the record, PJ is quoted as saying that he patterned that scene after the one where Frodo and Sam are standing near the bridge crossing over to Minas Morgul when the Lord of the Nazgul and his army leave the fortress to join the war against Gondor.
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05-06-2003, 04:01 PM | #495 |
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Does that mean that scene will be cut?
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05-06-2003, 04:01 PM | #496 |
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Does that mean that scene will be cut?
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05-06-2003, 07:46 PM | #497 | |
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He is weakened because he is made to appear weak, and the fact that such lengthy justifications are nescessary in order to show otherwise only makes the weakness more obvious. Frodo is, of course, the central figure of the tale. Part of this weakening is that he has been made merely an accessory figure in the films, and the focus has been taken /off/ the halflings, and put onto the 'wise' and the 'great'. Exactly the antithesis of the story as it should be.
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05-07-2003, 11:24 AM | #498 |
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Sam is, not Frodo. Just because Frodo says "I will take the Ring" doesn't make him the central character. Frodo is weak so Samwise can be strong. I never understood JRRT's choice of Frodo as Bilbo's heir because he's such a wimp. But once I realized the hero is Samwise, it all made sense. Frodo is just the cape you wave in front of the bull, while Sam is the sword.
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05-07-2003, 11:27 AM | #499 |
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In many ways, I agree with you that Sam is the hero, but Frodo's strength of will to carry the Ring so long is certainly admirable, and I wouldn't call him a wimp.
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05-07-2003, 12:55 PM | #500 |
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That's cool. I didn't choose the word wimp here. I'm just saying the characterization is not, in my opinion, totally inconsistent wit the book in this case. The wimp word you'll have to take up with whoever said it first.
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