Bush addresses the world- Pending War

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I accept the possibility of it being true - not the fact that it is true. We don't really know how the Iraqi's feel at this point.

Interestingly enough, while Iraqi's can't actually get out of Iraq, there ARE Iraqi's coming back into Iraq by the bus-load to defend their home country.

[Lizra]

I'd bet money more would take buses out (if only they could) than going in!

[Artanis]

Originally posted by draken
However good we think the Allies are, you have to accept that a chunk of the population of an invaded country might not think the same and could feel sufficiently motivated to defend their homeland rather than the regime running it.

My point exactly.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I accept the possibility of it being true - not the fact that it is true. We don't really know how the Iraqi's feel at this point.

We know what some of them feel. There are Iraqi refugees around the world, also in Norway, and they tell us how they feel. They hate Saddam and his regime and want him removed, but nonetheless most of them do not want this war. They view the war as an interference in their domestic affairs by countries they do not trust, and they feel their country is being invaded. And these people do not say this in fear of Saddam Hussein, they're out of his reach now.

Originally posted by BeardOfPants
Interestingly enough, while Iraqi's can't actually get out of Iraq, there ARE Iraqi's coming back into Iraq by the bus-load to defend their home country.

That's true. Some of the Iraqi exiles would go back and fight if they could, and some of them do.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
Interestingly enough, while Iraqi's can't actually get out of Iraq, there ARE Iraqi's coming back into Iraq by the bus-load to defend their home country.

Was that on Iraqi News or Al Jazeera during an interview with an Iraqi government official?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Artanis
My point exactly.
We know what some of them feel. There are Iraqi refugees around the world, also in Norway, and they tell us how they feel. They hate Saddam and his regime and want him removed, but nonetheless most of them do not want this war. They view the war as an interference in their domestic affairs by countries they do not trust, and they feel their country is being invaded. And these people do not say this in fear of Saddam Hussein, they're out of his reach now.

Yes - I know we know how many of them feel about this war form the outside - but does anyone really know what the Iraqis who are STUCK IN Iraq feel?

Also - here - many many Iraqis have come out in support for the way. Many have even denounced the peace protesters and have asked where were they while Hussien tortures and kills his own people.

That's true. Some of the Iraqi exiles would go back and fight if they could, and some of them do.

I agree with Lizra - more would leave if they could than go in than fight for Hussein.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by congressmn
life must be hell-like ofr them, is all i am saying.

So I come to my question finally.

Do you think a better future lies ahead for them? is their ne hope for the iraqi ppl? DOnt you think WAr is just too hard for them to bear after all this? DOes the world not realize that they too need be helped, and that all this is beyond war, and terrorism, but more about peace, tranquility and the need of a helpin hand to those torchured millions?

Life is already hell for them.

I certainly do think a better a future is ahead of them, in fact I know it. No longer will they have to fear that if they do or say something that might offend the power that be (Saddam) that they will be thrown into a meat grinder or have their daughter's raped or their sons killed where the government then makes them pay for the bullet that killed him.

I don't think war is too hard for them to bear, because they've been living in a war for over 30 years now. They will finally taste freedom for the first time in 3 decades!

Well for those tortured millions, no peace or tranquility can stop that. There is no way anyone can rightly say diplomacy will help stop torturing people...

[jerseydevil]

This was on BBC.com today...

British destroy Iraqi column

British reporters with UK troops reported successful delivery of some aid on Thursday to the southern town of al-Zubayr, which had been the scene of fierce fighting.

Troops trying to deliver aid there the previous day had fled after a sniper opened fire.

Most of those receiving aid on Thursday professed support for the US and UK - although suspicion on both sides continued, with UK troops saying some of those queuing up for hand-outs had probably been shooting at them just days before.

One man made it clear that coalition troops and their aid were welcome only on Iraqi terms.

"You are here on the condition that you liberate Iraq," said resident Ali Salman Hussein, 35.

"We don't want you to occupy us, we want you to liberate us and leave. If you don't leave then we will hate you."

See - you show me Iraqis who are pissed and want America's blood and I'll show you one's who are very happy and grateful.

I will - by the way - make sure that my government keeps it's promise for the liberation part. As far as I'm concerned - if Iraq is not liberated, with freely elected democratic government, then we have not won the war.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Artanis
We know what some of them feel. There are Iraqi refugees around the world, also in Norway, and they tell us how they feel. They hate Saddam and his regime and want him removed, but nonetheless most of them do not want this war. They view the war as an interference in their domestic affairs by countries they do not trust, and they feel their country is being invaded. And these people do not say this in fear of Saddam Hussein, they're out of his reach now.

What Iraqi's are saying this? All of the Iraqi exiles, including the Iraqi National Congress, and other organized Iraqi exile groups in America are excited about us fighting the war and can't wait for us to topple Saddam. I like to know where your information is coming from, because across the Atlantic it is the opposite for the Iraqi's here.

Here are 2 examples of Iraqi exiles:

Iraqi National Congress: http://www.inc.org.uk/
Women for a Free Iraq (these are Iraqi Women): http://www.womenforiraq.org/

[Artanis]

Originally posted by Dúnedain
I like to know where your information is coming from, because across the Atlantic it is the opposite for the Iraqi's here.

It is exiles currently living in Norway. They were interviewed by Norwegian media, so I cannot quote it to you, or provide a useful link, unless you can read Norwegian You'll have to trust me.

But I think this is another example of the filtering of news I've talked about before. Doubtless there are Iraqis in the US who oppose the war, and doubtless there are Iraqis here who support it. The media are putting forth what they want us to hear, and here in Norway they want us to read most anti-war stuff.

Edit: I'll see if I can find an English version of the interviews.

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
If my country was being invaded by a force that was about a thousand times stronger then us, and showed every indication that they were there to liberate us from a life of hell, and an evil dictator, no I would not defend it.

I believe that the intentions of the West is wholely good. However, I certainly don't believe that the Armed Forces of the various countries will necessarily demonstrate this. I would certainly imagine that there will probably be a certain amount of the typical post-battle behaviour on the part of individual soldiers.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Artanis
But I think this is another example of the filtering of news I've talked about before. Doubtless there are Iraqis in the US who oppose the war, and doubtless there are Iraqis here who support it. The media are putting forth what they want us to hear, and here in Norway they want us to read most anti-war stuff.

On the contrary - our media has put on Iraqis who are against the war - but they have also put on Iraqis who support. You just have to make up your own mind as to whose argument you side with more - and I side with the exiles who feel that we are doing the right thing.

It's sort of ironic - the one's against the war don't really have to worry too much about Hussein. They're living in a free country which allows them to live as they please. None of them suggested a way of getting Hussein out - short of war. I guess they just feel that all Iraqis should just leave Iraq and that'll fix the problems they obviously ran from.

[Artanis]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
On the contrary - our media has put on Iraqis who are against the war - but they have also put on Iraqis who support.

Good. Reading Dúnedain's post it seemed like the only opinions you got from Iraqi exiles was from those who supported the war, and I was responding to that.

[Draken]

"Or maybe the people are afraid we'll leave and that if they don't stand up to us and Hussein is left in power - he'll take his hatred out on them again. "

Maybe, that must be top of people's minds in the south especially, after what happened in 1991. Still wondering why a column of T-55s emerged from Basra to mix it with Challenger 2s...either very brave, very scared of what was behind them or very much in need of an Arabic version of Jane's Fighting Vehicles.


"A good friend of my father, a persor in an Air India flight, was on the evacuation flight, to get all the Indians livin in Kuwait back home.

They passed over Basra at low altitude, and they cud see all the firing n all. the bombs bursting away, the shelling, the report opf the guns n stuff."

They were flying from Kuwait to India and took in Basra at low altitude? Remind me to avoid Air India in times of crisis!

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Was that on Iraqi News or Al Jazeera during an interview with an Iraqi government official?

I read it in the NZ herald. I believe it was a reuters source, but I can't be sure.

Edit: it was Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...922066,00.html

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by BeardofPants
I read it in the NZ herald. I believe it was a reuters source, but I can't be sure.

Edit: it was Guardian.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...922066,00.html

Don't forget that many media outlets were reporting how the entire Arab world was flocking to Afganistan to take on the US and protect the Taliban.

[Dúnedain]

Originally posted by Artanis
Good. Reading Dúnedain's post it seemed like the only opinions you got from Iraqi exiles was from those who supported the war, and I was responding to that.

No sorry that it came across that way, I meant to say the majority of exiles are for it, thats what I meant, my bad.

[BeardofPants]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Don't forget that many media outlets were reporting how the entire Arab world was flocking to Afganistan to take on the US and protect the Taliban.

Well, this article isn't claiming that. It gives some figures as well. Anyway, it makes my point for me: that not all Iraqi's are under the thumb (or gunpoint) of Saddam. Some are fighting because they have a sense of patriotism, and are against the invasion... oops, I mean "liberation."

[Dunadan]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Many have even denounced the peace protesters and have asked where were they while Hussien tortures and kills his own people.

Well, since you ask, lots of them, including me, were protesting against our (Western) support for Saddam during the 1980s, when we were quite happy to tolerate his despotic ways as long as he was killing Iranians as well.

They might do better to ask why the US vetoed a UN resolution in the mid-1980s denouncing Saddam's use of chemical weapons.

no cheers

d.

[GrayMouser]

Originally posted by Gwaimir Windgem
[B]I believe that the intentions of the West is wholely good.
B]

Ummm? West? Keep it clear, please. The forces invading Iraq consist of America(230,000), Britain (50,000), Australia (2,000) and Poland (200).

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by GrayMouser
Ummm? West? Keep it clear, please. The forces invading Iraq consist of America(230,000), Britain (50,000), Australia (2,000) and Poland (200).

Just because they're the only one's fighting doesn't mean that other countries aren't supporting the war in other respects. Even most of the Middle Eastern countries are supporting the military action in some form.

47 countries are supporting the war effort in one way or another.