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12-21-2005, 10:12 AM | #481 | ||
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-21-2005, 10:23 AM | #482 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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12-21-2005, 01:24 PM | #483 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-21-2005, 01:30 PM | #484 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Yes, but the SETI scientists aren't asking that public schools require students to learn their theories as truth and science.
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
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12-21-2005, 01:37 PM | #485 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I would certainly hope that the SETI scientists would be rightfully granted the dignity of being called scientists, and having their field described as a scientific study, if students were to ask about it. Right now, scientists that are researching ID aren't allowed these rightful descriptions. Instead, by many people, they're subjected to name-calling that would shame a first-grader, and shameless and inappropriate questioning of their characters and their motives.
I'm not super-against the court decision; as I said, I think the field is not quite ready to be officially taught in schools. I'm mainly against those who try to suppress study in the field of ID by the very unscientific means of name-calling, and closing ranks against things they don't like, and questioning motives, and even "mind-reading" (like "I know what they REALLY think!" ) and things like that. If you don't like the field, scientist, then STAY OUT! There's plenty to research. But don't stop someone else who IS interested. The goal of science - the very MEANING of the WORD science - is knowledge. Let's not put limits on ourselves! Let's look at everything that science CAN look at - and that includes ID as I have described it.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-21-2005, 01:50 PM | #486 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-21-2005, 01:53 PM | #487 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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what practical applications does ID give us?
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-21-2005, 03:16 PM | #488 | |
Quasi Evil
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"People's political beliefs don't stem from the factual information they've acquired. Far more the facts people choose to believe are the product of their political beliefs." "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." |
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12-21-2005, 06:01 PM | #489 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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This makes me really angry. Impartially analyzing and discussing scientific research is one thing; "mind-reading" motives, ganging up and keeping perfectly good scientists from publishing in journals, and accusing them of immoral and unscientific conduct, apparently solely because of the type of research they're interested in, is quite another thing.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-21-2005 at 06:05 PM. |
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12-21-2005, 08:42 PM | #490 | |
Elf Lord of the Grey Havens
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There exists a limit to the force even ther most powerful may apply without destroying themselves. Judging this limit is the true artistry of government. Misuse of power is the fatal sin. The law cannot be a tool of vengance, never a hostage, nor a fortification against the martyrs it has created. You cannot threaten any individual and escape the consequences. -Muad'dib on Law The Stilgar Commentary |
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12-22-2005, 12:28 AM | #491 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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But typically, from what I've read, they don't even GET reviewed - the editors see it's an article about ID, and won't even review it, because they say it's not scientific because it's not in scientific journals, and it's not in scientific journals because it won't even get a review. When an ID article DID finally get printed in a scientific article, the editor in question (who thought it was a good article, along with the other reviewers that OKed it), started getting asked all sorts of personal, prying questions about his religious beliefs, like he was an unscrupulous, unethical man. Many, many people associate evolution with atheism; why not ask THEM when they OK an article about evolution.
ID is NOT tied to any particular religion or being. There is a distinct possibility that an intelligence IS behind our world, and I think it's irresponsible to ignore that possibility when good scientists think there ARE some valid things to scientifically study in this area.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 12-22-2005 at 12:30 AM. |
12-22-2005, 12:36 AM | #492 |
of the House of Fëanor
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Oh, I keep getting re-tempted to put the same two-cents worth in thes damn creationism VS science threads, and I ought to know better. So silly. The idea of a god or alien setting out to create the galaxy from scratch is total science FICtion, not science, and THAT is why IDers don't get respect or whatever. It's ridiculous. Are there any ATHIESTS who "BELIEVE" in I.D.? Or is it only Christians and other religious followers?
I TOTally wave my paw and say "bah."
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Few people have the imagination for reality.
~Johann Wolfgang von Goethe |
12-22-2005, 02:45 AM | #493 |
Saviour of Entmoot Admiral
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Please don't call people idiots Lotesse.
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12-22-2005, 05:59 AM | #494 |
the Shrike
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*wants to know if someone would please explain to her what some of these signatures are, and how would they be differentiated from 'non-designed' phenomena
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"Binary solo! 0000001! 00000011! 0000001! 00000011!" ~ The Humans are Dead, Flight of the Conchords |
12-22-2005, 10:10 AM | #495 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-22-2005, 10:19 AM | #496 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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it's not about whether ID is right or wrong... it is simply about the fact that we can not imply, from our current understanding of "intelligence" and observable intelligent beings that an intelligent designer could possibly do the things ID claims the designer does
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-22-2005, 10:58 AM | #497 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-22-2005, 11:12 AM | #498 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
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"naturally" being via forces and influences we can observe an alien is ultimately fiction because we have yet to observe one... science can theorize that aliens exist out there (a theory which depends in a large part upon accepting the theory of evolution, or something similar )... but it is actually a much weaker theory than evolution, since it is almost purely speculative and based solely on other theories my guess is that if you looked at high school curriculums you would find they spend very little, if any, time on discussing whether or not aliens exist... why? because it is not a particularly strong scientific theory (at least in light of current observations) maybe we need some group out there to champion the aliens too god (or an intelligent designer) is fiction because we have not observed one either... and, unlike aliens, have even less observable evidence from which to imply the designer's existance
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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12-22-2005, 11:12 AM | #499 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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I think one of the best examples would be an arrowhead shaped rock. If I were to pick up 2 rocks that look like arrowheads and examine them, I might conclude that one was a result of natural forces, and one was designed and implemented. One way would be this: the "natural" one would be something like a rock of all one type except where it was eroded further in, and there it would be a rock of a softer type that is more easily affected by water or other erosive forces. And the rock's shape follows the erosive properties of the type of rock. Now the one that I might conclude to be designed would have different types of rock in it also, with different erosive properties, but the shape is carried out despite the presence of different types of rock; IOW, against what we have observed in nature. Do you see the general idea? Also, as I said, if you look at a signal in an oscilloscope, you can generally tell if its noise or if it's a data-bearing signal, just from the way the signal looks and from your experience of actual data-bearing signals in the real world. I'm not sure how you would quantify it, because I wasn't on that end of the radar world, but that's what needs to be developed - the general idea of randomness vs. pattern (not mindless/replicated pattern like a snowflake; but data-bearing pattern). Another area that I think is a good idea to develop is looking for parts that cannot have been developed seperately (and I can't even think of the name now; it's really early and I'm going back to bed in a minute! It's what Behe talks about, and I think it's a very good concept to ponder and research). There's some of the things, and you can also find my links I posted a page or so back if you want to read more But the general concept is that we intuitively recognize things that are designed by an intelligence LIKE ours; that's why we even HAVE SETI programs, and why we even LOOK for signs of intelligence on other planets - because we KNOW it's recognizeable. And as I said, it's certainly a possibility that our world DID come about thru the efforts of an intelligence LIKE ours, and I think it's irresponsible to ignore this possibility, and unethical and unscientific to suppress it. Let the scientists publish!!!!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-22-2005, 11:21 AM | #500 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
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And does a chemist look at the AIDS virus and ask, "Could this have occurred naturally?" and stop there? OF course not! His/her goal is KNOWLEDGE about the virus; how it works; what affects it and how; etc. Really, the ONLY field in science whose main question is "could this have occurred naturally?" is evolution; I can't think of ANY other field where it is asked at all, or is asked as a main goal type of question.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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