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#481 |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: In me taters
Posts: 3,288
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Mmmmm, nice data.
One might add that the modern global infant mortality statistic is skewed by the very high rates in LDCs. If you look at a more advanced/degenerate (delete as appropriate to your agenda ![]() Encyclopedia Britannica http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article-206800 National Statistics Online: http://www.statistics.gov.uk/ |
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#482 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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I'll start out by saying that there was no "oblique snarkiness" intended at ALL. You really stunned me with that one. I thought we were all in the middle of a fun and friendly and interesting conversation. But as I read the rest of your post, I saw how you could come up with that, so I'll address your post and hopefully clear things up ![]() And the main thing I'll say is that I think if you go back and re-read the whole exchange, starting with your post #441 (see, that's how important I think you are - I went back and took notes on each post so we could discuss it and clear things up ![]() Quote:
![]() This "agenda" claim bothers me, because frankly, I think it's irresponsible debating - it's basically, IMO, a claim to be able to read someone's mind (unless the person in question has come out and said "My agenda is such-and-such!" - and even then, some people will say, "Oh, they're lying!" - again, a claim to read their mind). So I responded with "No mind-reading claims, please!" and a winkie-smilie, instead of a long, detailed response. Quote:
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I meant that I thought that basically any agenda, besides seeking the truth with integrity no matter where it leads, was a bad one. I think that Count explained what I meant perfectly in his post #475 (thank you, Count - I appreciate you trying to clear up what my unclear posts meant! You got it exactly right, at least as far as it concerned me). (And unfortunately, sis, you seemed to misunderstand the last sentence of his first paragraph and think that he was saying that I actually HAD the agenda that I described (the noble one) and you actually HAD the agenda that he thought you were describing (the distortion of truth one). I don't think he meant that at ALL! That's not like him. I think he meant that everyone has the kind of agenda how I use the word "agenda" - i.e., "purpose", and not everyone has the kind of agenda how YOU use the word "agenda" - i.e., an underlying motive that leads one to distort the truth in order to achieve a goal. Is that right, Count?) Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-01-2007 at 04:17 PM. |
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#483 | ||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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![]() And I used "for example" in my sentence about deceiving - that means it was an example, NOT a specific accusation against someone. I was referring back to the "ends justifying means" thing, and saying that if it took a deception to win a debate, that I didn't think it the deception was justified. Quote:
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![]() (BTW, for a long time I thought "kwim" was some African word that you were using that mean, roughly, 'ya know?' Can you believe how dense I was? Usually, people use caps for abbreviations - like KWIM - so I didn't realize it was an acronym!!!! I almost googled it to find out the language and the meaning! ![]() ![]() ![]() Quote:
*cuddles up with Gaffer's snoozing cat*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 06-01-2007 at 04:35 PM. |
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#484 | |
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Reality
Posts: 3,767
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![]() And I'm not just kidding around (well, not completely ![]()
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Your reality, sir, is lies and balderdash and I'm delighted to say that I have no grasp of it whatsoever. |
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#485 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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Rian - you're right. I didn't mean to say that either of you HAD that agenda, just that you used the word "agenda" to mean different things. I think you're both trying for the truth (although Rian, you may be further from it, IMHO
![]() BJ - I think the refuges example also points out the exemption for self-defense. And while I'm sure there are many people who believe any killing is wrong, I do beg them to read the Bible, because even if you argue about self-defense, it's got about 400 zillion death penalties ![]()
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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#486 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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Rian, I can promise you...you'd be ASTOUNDED how many things we agree on. This just doesn't happen (for a number of odd reasons) ![]() ![]()
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#487 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#488 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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My dad just emailed me this - I thought I'd share it here
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#489 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#490 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Thomas Aquinas College, Santa Paula, CA
Posts: 10,820
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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#491 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#492 | |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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#493 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#494 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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which, IMHO, is generally NOT the same thing as a Methodist!
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#495 | ||||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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You've given me a lot of things to respond to, Count Comfect
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Note that this verse says "the nations." Revelation 20 (or was it 21?) also was referring to "the nations." One of the other important times in the Bible that "the nations" is referred to is early in the Book of Acts, when Peter says that "the nations" condemned Christ. And when he said "the nations" did that, he was referring to the Jewish leaders conspiring with Pilate and Herod against Christ. So that would represent three different forms of authority, and those together equaled "the nations" to Peter. So "the nations", in the Bible, doesn't have to refer to all the world. But here you really put your finger on a much more complex issue, for there's more than one element in this, to me. For one thing, I'm not entirely sure that Christianity did not spread throughout the world at that time. Or at least an important block of it may have been outside of Europe (and I'm not thinking of Russia or the Byzantines). I tend to connect the South American god Quetzacoatl with Jesus Christ for a number of reasons. The worship of that god, and the other pretty benign, peaceful South American gods that were worshipped in South America at that time, started at around 300 AD, at about exactly the same time Constantine was crowned emperor and I see the Christian era as having begun in Europe. I only found that out recently, having already connected Quetzacoatl with Christ for a long time. Quetzacoatl was supposed to have traveled to the underground to save humanity, and he was supposed to have shed his blood to save the world. He was considered the leader of the deities, and had a virgin birth. Sometimes, he was seen as a symbol of death and resurrection. In some traditions, Quetzacoatl was seen as opposing human sacrifice. And that makes sense, seeing as he was worshipped before the more violent Toltec era. Quetzacoatl was also supposed to have departed from South America during the dark ages of that time, when barbarians invaded everything and ended the existing time of civilization around 400 years after it had begun. The Aztecs had calculated exactly when he was prophesied to return, and that time coincided precisely with the time Cortez and the contiquistadores arrived at South America, bringing back Christianity. I know that there are several ways in which the Quetzacoatl belief does not parallel Christianity, but there are enough ways in which it does that I think it was essentially Christianity. And that time of worship started at the same time as Christianity started in Europe. The problem with this perspective is that the generally peaceful, highly advanced civilization that worshipped Quetzacoatl only lasted 400 years, whereas the millennial kingdom was supposed to last 1,260, in my view. That happened in Europe, but not in South America. I haven't researched enough of the other civilizations of the world to know whether or not they might have had similar parallels to South America in religion and religious upheaval, but I looked at China and I've studied Islamic expansion, and I don't see any parallels there. So I don't know how far this new thought in my mind works. But another aspect to this ruling the world business is that I see two different periods of Christian dominance as predicted in Revelation, and I think they overlap some. I see one as starting at 685 AD and ending in 1945. The other, the millennial kingdom, began in 305 AD and ended in 1565. But the era from 685 to 1945 I see as a time of witnessing, of measuring the size of the spiritual temple of God. And by the end of that period, Christians really did control virtually the entire world. They dominated Africa, Indonesia, India, both Americas, Asia . . . really pretty much the entire Earth. But that ended with Adolf Hitler, who I see as the beast from the Abyss predicted in Revelation. I can show you the scriptural connections that to me point to all this, but that would take a very long post. Part of this dashing the nations I see as having occurred through the Western Christian conquerors. And that went on throughout pretty much the entire world. One could say that there were tribes here and there, or portions of certain continents, where they didn't rule, and I don't mean to argue with that. But those local areas don't matter so much to me. The vast majority of the nations converted or were conquered. Many, many times the Christians fought against incredible odds and won anyway. And no, I'm not justifying conquering other countries in order to force one's own religion on the inhabitants. I believe that these conquests are largely rewritten unfairly in modern history books by people with an anti-Victorian bias (that ideology really took off after WW2). But as I research these conquests further, and I've been looking at some of them carefully, particularly those in South America, North America and China, I find that the Christians were very frequently attacked by the native populace without any valid justification. The Christians were struck first, and their response was therefore justified self-defense. Not always, but usually, from what I've seen. That's my present perspective, and that's what the history I've seen so far has indicated. With North America, it's really, really hard to get all the facts, because there were so many different tribes with different stories. There, I've only been able to look at a small handful of the big ones, like Metacom and Tecumseh, and I researched the destruction of the northwestern buffalo, the defeat of the Blackfeet and some of those other Plains tribes. But aside from those, I know my research still has a long way to go, and one can always go into more depth than I did on the specifics of those cases too, of course. Anyone researching any particular thing rather than trying to do a lot, like I am, will undoubtedly learn more about that specific case. But with South America and China, my research is going much easier. I know that one can point to many crimes for the Christians in this period of history too. I do think that some of their biggest "crimes" were not actually crimes, like the justifications for conquest. However, others, like slavery and some of the episodes with natives like the Trail of Tears, plus tortures inflicted on natives to gain booty, those kinds of cases were certainly very sick and evil. I'm not trying to claim the Christians were perfect, and indeed, this was an era where the Enlightenment had somewhat tainted the governments too, so it should also take some of the blame. But I think that the overall theme of those conquests was Christians being attacked by powers they were trying to witness to, and defending themselves very successfully. Sometimes martyrdom is the best course, but other times, fighting and winning will prove Christ's power and goodness to the native population more effectively. That is what Christians experienced with the Incas in South America. Anyway, this gets so, so complex, and I've only touched on a fraction of my views concerning it without getting into the evidence, from scripture or history, at all. So that's sad. And I don't feel fully equipped yet to discuss this in many countries as well as others could, for I haven't yet done my summer's planned research yet ![]() Quote:
I go into some detail on divorce, remarriage, annulment and separation in post 84 in this thread. http://www.entmoot.com/showthread.ph...hlight=divorce Remarriage was generally considered unacceptable after divorce or annulment, and always after a separation. Even when the wife had died, it was viewed with suspicion, according to "Christianity Today". According to "A History of Christianity," by Owen Chadwick, page 156, church lawyers were needed to get an annulment, and the annulments seem to have been primarily established when they were "the only humane course." If church lawyers were needed, mainly the nobility would have had this access, and if remarriage was not much of an option at all, the incentive for divorce among many people would have been far smaller. People would have had more incentive to make the marriage they had work. Even as late as the year 1700, in the post-Enlightenment environment (which was still very religious), Voltaire wrote that in half of Europe, it was impossible to get a divorce, and in the other half, it was very difficult. Chadwick wrote that, "the total ban on divorce had long consequences in the history of the churches." I find it interesting that your sources say syphilis was first recorded in 1495, for that brings the start of its spread to near the end of the period I'd consider to have been millennial. I find that to be a confirmation of my position about the effectiveness of Medieval laws. Boswell's book, as cited by Wikipedia, is a very controversial one that offers a "revolutionary" perspective on the Catholic Church and monastic orders' historical perspective on homosexuality. The use of the words "controversial" and "revolutionary" imply that it's opposed to the beaten track of perception of that period. That indicates to me that it's a dubious source. Quote:
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But note that this only refers to Italy, and that this is also within a hundred years of the end of the period I'd see as millennial. Quote:
Interesting that that's the same number of years Jesus was supposed to have lived. Just interesting. Quote:
The part of the Wikipedia article you quoted about pornography isn't very telling. More important, I think, are these parts: Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-02-2007 at 01:00 AM. |
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#496 | |
Elf Lord
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,535
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__________________
That would be the swirling vortex to another world. Cool. I want one. TMNT No, I'm not emo. I just have a really poor sense of direction. (Thanks to katya for this quote) This is the best news story EVER! http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26087293/ “Often my haste is a mistake, but I live with the consequences without complaint.”...John McCain "I shall go back. And I shall find that therapist. And I shall whack her upside her head with my blanket full of rocks." ...Louisa May |
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#497 | ||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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Isn't it true in everyday experience that those who are good and honest, and act with integrity in their lives, are often found more trustworthy by those around them and so benefit from the respect and love of others? It says in the scripture that against goodness "there is no law." And God too gives his people small tasks at first, and when they prove faithful, he gives them larger tasks. King David started as a shepherd boy and was faithful with smaller things, so he was moved up steadily, piece by piece, to bigger things. He is rather a parallel of Jesus as well, in his life. He started as a shepherd, which is exactly what Jesus called himself, but through faithfulness to God in the course of trials, God gave him the position of monarch over Israel. I think that the scripture has already been fulfilled in which Jesus said specifically to his apostles that they would sit on twelve thrones and rule over the tribes of Israel (or over the church, which is, according to scripture, the new Israel). And they were given the kingdom as well, which is awesome to conceive of. I think that those apostles and the other martyrs reigned with Christ on thrones for a thousand years, which is why people prayed to the saints and experienced so much interaction with the saints, and believed in such authority existing with the saints, during that period. Quote:
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That is not an earthly kingdom but a heavenly kingdom, and that's what Christ was referring to in this scripture. That heavenly kingdom within the hearts of men inspires them to do what is right. Now it is right for nations to have just laws and proper government. So godly men should seek to bring that about. If they don't care about injustice that comes from authorities and don't try to fix it as best they can, they are not bearing "witness to the truth." They are not doing what is right. Jesus opposed the authorities of his time, the Pharisees, partly because they put weights around the necks of the common men that they refused to bear themselves, to (roughly) use his words. And Martin Luther King Jr. opposed segregation in the US because it was unjust. He was successful, thank God, because he opposed unjust laws in the government and sought to bring just ones. The Christians, when they gained power in the Empire, got Rome's gladiatorial games abolished. I doubt that many people nowadays would see a moral problem with that. The kingdom Christ brought is a kingdom in the heart, but it manifests itself in right action in both normal social life as well as politics. Christians are to be servants, but there are many ways to serve, and the Lord will give a servant more responsibility and sometimes authority and leadership when that servant proves him or herself faithful with less. Quote:
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." |
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#498 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Not where I want to be ...
Posts: 15,254
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Quote:
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! ![]() "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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#499 | |||||||||
Elf Lord
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Fountain Valley, CA
Posts: 6,343
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By the way, Count Comfect, I very much respect your manner of arguing and the quality of posts you've been submitting in this thread. You've presented a lot of very useful historical information and have shown a level of knowledge of the Bible that surprises me. That really makes this conversation far more interesting to me, so thanks for that too
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There is an increasing number of Christians who are focused on emissions now. I personally am a very skeptical that cutting emissions will do any good, because I tend to think it's already too late and we've passed a point of no return after which Global Warming is self-producing and self-sustaining. Quote:
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It might explain shorter lifespans in general being not so bad, though. Quote:
And about wealth and technology again, I'd like to point out that in the Book of Revelation, Babylon is described as being at the height of wealth and technology when it was completely destroyed. Babylon rode on the back of the beast from the abyss, which I connect with Hitler, and many of the modern ideologies, false religions and immoral laws have been passed since 1945. And of course you can point to exceptions like the Civil Rights movement. But a lot of the Christian collapse really was finalized in the spiritual despair that followed World War 2. So from that perspectives, if modern society is connected with Babylon, a possibility I've been pondering in the back of my mind (though I haven't yet carefully enough analyzed the details of the scriptures involved to draw solid conclusions) the immense modern technological advances and moral retreats since the collapse of the Christian age may actually be an indicator of a worse time period rather than a better one. Not that the technology or improved economy are in themselves bad. It's the moral retreats that are bad, not the technology or wealth. Except where technology and wealth become idols, of course, though that perspective is not universal.
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If the world has indeed, as I have said, been built of sorrow, it has been built by the hands of love, because in no other way could the soul of man, for whom the world was made, reach the full stature of its perfection. ~Oscar Wilde, written from prison Oscar Wilde's last words: "Either the wallpaper goes, or I do." Last edited by Lief Erikson : 06-02-2007 at 02:21 AM. |
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#500 |
Word Santa Claus
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2,922
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Lief:
First, let me point out that your millenial period seems to get more and more diffuse as you start arguing that anything within a century of its end doesn't count as being part of it. Second, I take strong exception to your arguments about the ancient Americas. The worship of the Feathered Serpent (the diety later appropriated as Quetzalcoatl) originated, or seems to have, in Teotihuacan at some point before that city's destruction in c.450-550AD. The Temple of the Feathered Serpent was covered by c.500 AD (Lopez Austin, p. 113). We do not see the reappearance of this cult until almost 900AD, and it does not become strong (nor accumulate the supposedly Christ-like associations) until the late Postclassic, right before the Spanish conquest. My primary source for this is Mexico's Indigenous Past by Alfredo Lopez-Austin and Leonardo Lopez Lujan. And the Quetzalcoatl-as-Spanish myth appears to have arisen in the 16th century, actually after the Spanish conquest, as a retroactive explanation for Montezuma's inaction (see The Broken Spears, a collection of native accounts of the conquest, edited by Miguel Leon-Portilla) As for the Christians being attacked first, at least in Mesoamerica their attacks largely predate any local attacks...an amazing fact when you consider that the Spanish tended to come in with what were clearly armies invading these people's lands. The Aztecs did not do anything to the conquistadors, gift-giving aside, until the Spanish interrupted a native ceremony by trying to kill the performers, for example. On the other points, using what time I have here: For pornography, yes, it was banned in public, but used in private. I thought your religion was one of the heart, not one in which private sin was permitted. On divorce, read E.P. Thompson's excellent Customs in Common about folk attitudes towards wife sales-as-divorce. It's quite interesting. I disagree with your Biblical exegesis, because I think all the times Christ explicitly disclaims earthly lordship make a very clear statement that government "by God" or even "for God" is not Christ's desire. Rather, he wished every Christian to keep a private virtue, albeit one publicly expressed. Christ does not insist that the laws of the kingdoms of earth punish sin, but rather that the individual Christian work towards the kingdom of heaven by rejection of sin and acceptance of Christ. I read his disclaiming of earthly kingship, and claim for heavenly kingship, as an explicit insistence that the earthly kingdom does not make or break one's connection to heaven.
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Sufficient to have stood, yet free to fall. |
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