02-10-2003, 01:24 AM | #481 |
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RÃ*an - thanks for the trouble of answering - apologies for only getting back to you now - I usually go away for weekends, so I hardly ever get to a PC.
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02-10-2003, 01:37 AM | #482 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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No trouble, Baby-K - weekends aren't good for me, either, at least for thoughtful-type posts (I'll do some shorter ones on the other threads for fun). I'll wait for a response from you on what I posted re Abraham before I go any further (if the Lewis quotes don't make sense to you, then the response could be as simple as "huh?" and I'll try to explain better). I'll check back in tomorrow mid-morning (it's 9:30 pm for me now - I think you're 10 hrs ahead of me). See ya!
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-10-2003, 02:44 AM | #483 |
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RÃ*an - I see you! Thought you were going to bed???
I'll post a reply to your post later - just need to get my thoughts organised
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02-10-2003, 02:52 AM | #484 |
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Actually, that was my husband that logged back on to read one of my posts that I wanted him to look at while I was doing some last-minute laundry! But we're signing off now - time for bed in our corner of the world I'll see you when we're BOTH on Monday (time zones are so funny, aren't they )
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-10-2003, 02:59 AM | #485 |
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Yeah - in a paradoxical twist of fate you will spend most of your time in my yesterday
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02-10-2003, 03:45 PM | #486 | ||
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Andúril - I don't see any good coming from talking about my PM to you anymore, so I won't address your latest response to it in any detail. I don't want to use up my time when I think nothing good will come out of it. It was meant to try to help you, but since you don't seem to agree with any of it, it's not worthwhile to me to go over the imaginary nitpicks with you. IMO, you miss the entire point. You said this:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-10-2003, 03:59 PM | #487 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Back to Omnipotence...
And I have a bit of time, so I'll wrap up what I wanted to say about omnipotence - both the regular and decaf variety - while I'm waiting for responses to my opening Abraham post.
(note - when I use the word "God", I'm referring to the God of the Bible, not of any other religion). I don't remember if I started a closing post on this subject or not, and my thread notes only go up to page 20, and I don't feel like paging back to see if I did start, so if I repeat myself, then please forgive me. I've been thinking alot about why I'm so vehement about this subject, and I've come to the realization that my whole objection lies in the use of the adjectives "strong" and "weak". I understand the definitions, I can even see a need for making up terms for them, but the use of a word such as "weak" to modify a term like "omnipotence" would be hysterically funny if it weren't so tragically inappropriate. And my objection to the use of these adjectives is in 2 areas - (1) the sheer inappropriateness of the term "weak" to describe the incredible power of the most powerful Being in the universe, and (2) the confusion that it might cause some people because of the inappropriateness. As I said before, what Andúril refers to as "strong omnipotence" - IOW, including those things that are syntactically possible, but inherently illogical and self-contradictory, and thus not able to exist in any reality - I would call something like "impossible/illogical omnipotence" (or "decaf omnipotence" - omnipotence with the power taken out ). Words like "impossible" or "illogical" would be appropriate modifiers for the word "omnipotence" in this scenario, IMO. What Andúril refers to as "weak omnipotence", I would just call "omnipotence", or possibly "true omnipotence" or "real omnipotence". This is the type of omnipotence that the God described in the Bible has (and it has some MAJOR caffeine ). It is the highest type of power that ANY being CAN POSSIBLY have. God can do anything He wants, and nothing and no one can stop Him! Now who in their right mind would apply a modifier such as "weak" to that type of power? That's what I object to. So to sum up objection #1, it is an insult to language itself (the purpose of language is to communicate concepts and ideas and thoughts), as well as to God, to say that God has weak omnipotence. And when I say it's an insult to God, I mean that it is a misrepresentation, because of the word "weak" - and that makes me angry, because I, as a Christian, know and love Him. It's like if you insulted and lied about my husband or my family or my friends - it makes me angry that they would be falsely represented. (My personal theory on the matter is that the person that came up with the terms accidentally switched the two modifiers around, and by the time he/she saw the error, it was too late to correct it! ) Now the second reason why I react so vehemently against the use of these terms is because it might confuse some Christians who are young in the faith. They might think "OMGoodness, I guess God isn't as strong as He could be ... He can't do everything He wants to!". Now that is a flat-out lie. As Lewis says so well, when talking about phrases that are syntactically possible but intrinsically impossible, Quote:
So I would ask those people that use the terms "strong" and "weak" omnipotence the following: "Can any being that can ever exist in reality, IYO, ever have "strong omnipotence?" I believe that they would have to answer "no". Then the next question that I would ask would be: "What term would you use for the highest level of power that any being that can exist in reality can ever have? I believe they would have to answer "weak omnipotence". Then I would have to say that I believe that the adjective "weak" is a pretty poor choice, and one that has the danger of implying exactly the opposite of what the reality of the situation is.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-10-2003 at 04:56 PM. |
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02-10-2003, 04:23 PM | #488 | |||||
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02-10-2003, 05:43 PM | #489 | |||||||
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An analogy: When the Lexus IS200 was launched (or the IS300 for you people in the US), it was called by many motoring journalists the "baby Lexus". This does not mean that the IS200 is a baby, or displayes similar attributes to a baby. It is meant in relation to the GS300 and LS430, two of its bigger stablemates. Therefore, in labeling weak omnipotence, one does not suggest that the being in question is "weak" (although that can be contested), it merely differentiates itself from another "stronger" omnipotence. Quote:
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Last edited by Andúril : 02-10-2003 at 05:47 PM. |
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02-10-2003, 05:46 PM | #490 | ||||||
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Now, it is patently absurd that someone who posits a strongly omnipotent god-concept will answer "no". Quote:
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02-10-2003, 08:10 PM | #491 |
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I will try to prove that strong omnipotence, as defined by Anduril, is illogical.
Its time for (**drumroll**) analogy time! For today's analogy, God is a circle. Imagine an omnipotent, all-powerful circle (Yes I know its ridiculuous, but it works). Under the definition of "strong omnipotence" this circle is able to be a square, or a triangle, or a pentagon. Does this seem logical? Strong omnipotence means that something could defy its own definition. Strong omnipotent white could be black, etc. Therefore, the best definition of omnipotence is the "weak omnipotence." God cannot sin, which he could do under "strong omnipotence", because that would be against his definition. God, at least under Judeo-Christian concepts, is perfect. Therefore, if God sinned, he would not be God, just as if a circle was rectanular it would not be a circle.
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02-10-2003, 08:35 PM | #492 | |
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-10-2003, 08:54 PM | #493 | ||
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__________________
. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-10-2003, 09:41 PM | #494 |
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And now, since Finmandos12 has kindly provided a wonderful analogy in "analogy time", RÃ*an will kindly provide a wonderful story in "story time"
Once upon a time, there were 2 fleas, Sasha and Wilbur (note the first letter of the names - they correspond to "strong" and "weak" omnipotence, for your convenience. I aim to please ) Sasha and Wilbur met at the local dog one day and started discussing 'elephants', something that they had both just heard about recently for the first time. Wilbur: "Wow! I tell ya, Sasha, them elephants sound incredibly powerful!" Sasha: "Well, yeah, but if you talk about elephants, you need to talk about "strong" and "weak" elephants, you know." Wilbur: "Um, what?" Sasha (in an important tone of voice): "Oh yes, strong elephants can do a lot more than weak elephants! They can be both fully an elephant and fully a worm! They can eat a tree so big that they can't eat it! And lots more things that I can make syntactically correct sentences out of! Wilbur: "Um, what does syntax have to do with the subject at hand?" Sasha: "And because strong elephants can do more than weak elephants, they are stronger!! *hops off dog and wanders off in search of strong elephants. * *narrator's note - Sasha will never find a strong elephant, because they do not and cannot exist* Wilbur: "Hmm, I think I heard someone say that there's an elephant - whoops, a weak elephant! - over across the field there, I think I'll take a look..." *hops off dog and goes to find a "weak" elephant* *narrator's note - Wilbur WILL find a "weak" elephant, because they DO exist in reality* Wilbur: *looking at the elephant, which is, in fact, the only type of elephant that can exist* "Geez, that is some honkin' strong "weak elephant"!!!!!!! *end of story*
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-10-2003 at 09:46 PM. |
02-10-2003, 09:58 PM | #495 |
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Ha ha! Quite amusing.
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02-10-2003, 10:01 PM | #496 |
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And illustrates my point, I hope
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
02-10-2003, 10:06 PM | #497 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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02-11-2003, 05:47 AM | #498 | |||
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Last edited by Andúril : 02-11-2003 at 05:49 AM. |
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02-11-2003, 06:17 AM | #499 | ||||
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02-11-2003, 11:30 AM | #500 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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(hint - Try asking politely - you didn't ask me to show you Scripture about this, you just mentioned that you would like me to. In fact, at this point, try throwing in a compliment, too, because you've been very mean to me *sniff* and you've hurt my feelings *pout* by saying I'm sermonizing, etc. And after I said you looked like Fingolfin, too! You have never said anything nice about me and I don't feel like doing something for you when you haven't even asked.)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç Ã¥ â„¢ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by RÃan : 02-11-2003 at 11:34 AM. |
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