Iraq

[markedel]

I don't see Iraq attacking Israel unless the US invades. And if Saddam attacks Israel it might be with chemical weapons...if I lived there I wouldn't support it. But then again sharon is kind of busy trying to wield a government of the right and the self-assuredly right.

[Cirdan]

What about the obstinantly right; has he got those too?

I think that they will be alerted, given the flight codes (unlike the Gulf War), and will be prepared for a full retaliatory strike. You right though, If I lived there...

[markedel]

Yeah he got those too. Who knows it's not as if the left is much better...but I'm just an interested observer.

[Aeryn]

Millane, Okay that was just an ignorant comment (1st page)
No President, while in the presidency (except monroe) has EVER stepped foot on a battlefield.
If you live in Australia, you go ahead and keep lookin' at the bouncin' marsupials!

I believe that Irag has not really threatened America, but Sadam is still a threat to other nations . So what do we do with bully's? WIPE THEM OUT! That is the American way. What did we do to the Brits? Pushed back. What did we do to the French and Indians? Pushed back. What did we do with Sadam before? Pushed back (for the SAKE of Kuwait).
Plus Hussein is a down right dirty capitalist (communist, whatever). Who needs those kind?

*smiles innocently after that rambling section* *sighs contentedly*

[Radagast The Brown]

originally posted by Aeryn
I believe that Irag has not really threatened America, but Sadam is still a threat to other nations . So what do we do with bully's? WIPE THEM OUT! That is the American way. What did we do to the Brits? Pushed back. What did we do to the French and Indians? Pushed back. What did we do with Sadam before? Pushed back (for the SAKE of Kuwait).
Plus Hussein is a down right dirty capitalist (communist, whatever). Who needs those kind?

Actually, you have no right to go to Iraq and say that the goverment is wrong and that you chose another person to be the leader.

I think Saddam is a dictator, but he is defenately not a communist.

[markedel]

Actually the US ensured Saddam's rise to power, funded him, armed him, and led to the deaths of thousands of Iraqis when deciding not to depose him. He's a bad guy, and I'm sure the world be better off without him, but US political machinations are not always so idealistic and pure...

[The Lady of Ithilien]

I like what US Senator Fred Thompson said (as quoted by columnist Paul Greenberg in October): "The Arab countries in the region want Saddam either dead or happy. They don't want him aggravated, and we've been just aggravating him for years."

The "keep him happy" crowd has recently been floating ideas like sending him and his family into exile a la Idi Amin, but that hasn't gotten anywhere. Too, he's happy when he's gassing Kurds, etc., which is not acceptable.

Which leaves only the third alternative...and few powers in the world are capable of bringing it about. It's not 100% guaranteed even the US can end his regime. But what is a sure bet is, if and after we do, the whole world will clapping us on the back and telling us they were with us all the time.

[jerseydevil]

Today is the day the US resolution goes for a vote.

I will be extremelhy surprised if iraq actually fully cooperates with the resolution though. He never has before - can't really see why this one would be any different.

[markedel]

I wonder what slippery semantics the U.S will do to start the shooting. Saddam deserves what he gets when he gets it, I wonder if the Iraqi people do? It's not that I doubt U.S military prowess-but I doubt's Bush commitment to a rebuilt Iraq-after all it would have to be the first multicultural democracy. Even us Canadians can't pull that off! And we've had 160 years of responsible government.

[Dunadan]

Looks like all but Syria will back it. You're probably right, but I reckon it's better to have him tied up giving inspectors the runaround. It might also keep moderate arab opinion on-side.

And maybe then the US can re-assign some of its intelligence personnel back to the hunt for Al-Quaeda...

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by markedel
I wonder what slippery semantics the U.S will do to start the shooting. Saddam deserves what he gets when he gets it, I wonder if the Iraqi people do?

If we wanted to - we could have gone in there already. We have the technology and the manpower. And in case you didn't notice - the Republicans did win the Senate and gained seats in the house - which some analysts are saying is a sign that Bush has the AMERICAN people's backing on this. Which I believe he does.
[clarification] He doesn't have full public support for just going into Iraq without weapons inspectors. People support the tough stand he has taken with Iraq and if Hussein does not cooperate - Bush will have public support for military action whether or not the UN is with us or not.

So what would you suggest? Obviously you don't trust America. Would you support just turning around and saying to Hussein if he doesn't coopertae "oh well, we tried. You can go about your business because we don't want to hurt the Iraqi citizens who you have no problem torturing or gassing."

It's not that I doubt U.S military prowess-but I doubt's Bush commitment to a rebuilt Iraq-after all it would have to be the first multicultural democracy. Even us Canadians can't pull that off! And we've had 160 years of responsible government.

I'm not even going to comment - it's just too funny for words.

[jerseydevil]

The resolution was passed unanimously

The Security Council,

Recalling all its previous relevant resolutions, in particular its resolutions 661 (1990) of 6 August 1990, 678 (1990) of 29 November 1990, 686 (1991) of 2 March 1991, 687 (1991) of 3 April 1991, 688 (1991) of 5 April 1991, 707 (1991) of 15 August 1991, 715 (1991) of 11 October 1991, 986 (1995) of 14 April 1995, and 1284 (1999) of 17 December 1999, and all the relevant statements of its President,

Recalling also its resolution 1382 (2001) of 29 November 2001 and its intention to implement it fully,

Recognizing the threat Iraq's noncompliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,

Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to Resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,

Further recalling that its resolution 687 (1991) imposed obligations on Iraq as a necessary step for achievement of its stated objective of restoring international peace and security in the area,

Deploring the fact that Iraq has not provided an accurate, full, final, and complete disclosure, as required by resolution 687 (1991), of all aspects of its programmes to develop weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles with a range greater than one hundred and fifty kilometres, and of all holdings of such weapons, their components and production facilities and locations, as well as all other nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to nuclear-weapons-usable material,

Deploring further that Iraq repeatedly obstructed immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to sites designated by the United Nations Special Commission (UNSCOM) and the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), failed to cooperate fully and unconditionally with UNSCOM and IAEA weapons inspectors, as required by resolution 687 (1991), and ultimately ceased all cooperation with UNSCOM and the IAEA in 1998,

Deploring the absence, since December 1998, in Iraq of international monitoring, inspection, and verification, as required by relevant resolutions, of weapons of mass destruction and ballistic missiles, in spite of the Council's repeated demands that Iraq provide immediate, unconditional, and unrestricted access to the United Nations Monitoring, Verification and Inspection Commission (UNMOVIC), established in resolution 1284 (1999) as the successor organization to UNSCOM, and the IAEA, and regretting the consequent prolonging of the crisis in the region and the suffering of the Iraqi people,

Deploring also that the Government of Iraq has failed to comply with its commitments pursuant to resolution 687 (1991) with regard to terrorism, pursuant to resolution 688 (1991) to end repression of its civilian population and to provide access by international humanitarian organizations to all those in need of assistance in Iraq, and pursuant to resolutions 686 (1991), 687 (1991), and 1284 (1999) to return or cooperate in accounting for Kuwaiti and third country nationals wrongfully detained by Iraq, or to return Kuwaiti property wrongfully seized by Iraq,

Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,

Determined to ensure full and immediate compliance by Iraq without conditions or restrictions with its obligations under resolution 687 (1991) and other relevant resolutions and recalling that the resolutions of the Council constitute the governing standard of Iraqi compliance,

Recalling that the effective operation of UNMOVIC, as the successor organization to the Special Commission, and the IAEA is essential for the implementation of resolution 687 (1991) and other relevant resolutions,

Noting the letter dated 16 September 2002 from the Minister for Foreign Affairs of Iraq addressed to the Secretary General is a necessary first step toward rectifying Iraq's continued failure to comply with relevant Council resolutions,

Noting further the letter dated 8 October 2002 from the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director General of the IAEA to General Al-Saadi of the Government of Iraq laying out the practical arrangements, as a follow-up to their meeting in Vienna, that are prerequisites for the resumption of inspections in Iraq by UNMOVIC and the IAEA, and expressing the gravest concern at the continued failure by the Government of Iraq to provide confirmation of the arrangements as laid out in that letter,

[jerseydevil]

Reaffirming the commitment of all Member States to the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Iraq, Kuwait, and the neighbouring States,

Commending the Secretary General and members of the League of Arab States and its Secretary General for their efforts in this regard,

Determined to secure full compliance with its decisions,

Acting under Chapter VII of the Charter of the United Nations,

1. Decides that Iraq has been and remains in material breach of its obligations under relevant resolutions, including resolution 687 (1991), in particular through Iraq's failure to cooperate with United Nations inspectors and the IAEA, and to complete the actions required under paragraphs 8 to 13 of resolution 687 (1991);

2. Decides, while acknowledging paragraph 1 above, to afford Iraq, by this resolution, a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations under relevant resolutions of the Council; and accordingly decides to set up an enhanced inspection regime with the aim of bringing to full and verified completion the disarmament process established by resolution 687 (1991) and subsequent resolutions of the Council;

3. Decides that, in order to begin to comply with its disarmament obligations, in addition to submitting the required biannual declarations, the Government of Iraq shall provide to UNMOVIC, the IAEA, and the Council, not later than 30 days from the date of this resolution, a currently accurate, full, and complete declaration of all aspects of its programmes to develop chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons, ballistic missiles, and other delivery systems such as unmanned aerial vehicles and dispersal systems designed for use on aircraft, including any holdings and precise locations of such weapons, components, sub-components, stocks of agents, and related material and equipment, the locations and work of its research, development and production facilities, as well as all other chemical, biological, and nuclear programmes, including any which it claims are for purposes not related to weapon production or material;

4. Decides that false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations and will be reported to the Council for assessment in accordance with paragraphs 11 and or 12 below;

5. Decides that Iraq shall provide UNMOVIC and the IAEA immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to any and all, including underground, areas, facilities, buildings, equipment, records, and means of transport which they wish to inspect, as well as immediate, unimpeded, unrestricted, and private access to all officials and other persons whom UNMOVIC or the IAEA wish to interview in the mode or location of UNMOVIC's or the IAEA's choice pursuant to any aspect of their mandates; further decides that UNMOVIC and the IAEA may at their discretion conduct interviews inside or outside of Iraq, may facilitate the travel of those interviewed and family members outside of Iraq, and that, at the sole discretion of UNMOVIC and the IAEA, such interviews may occur without the presence of observers from the Iraqi government; and instructs UNMOVIC and requests the IAEA to resume inspections no later than 45 days following adoption of this resolution and to update the Council 60 days thereafter;

6. Endorses the 8 October 2002 letter from the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director General of the IAEA to General Al-Saadi of the Government of Iraq, which is annexed hereto, and decides that the contents of the letter shall be binding upon Iraq;

[jerseydevil]

7. Decides further that, in view of the prolonged interruption by Iraq of the presence of UNMOVIC and the IAEA and in order for them to accomplish the tasks set forth in this resolution and all previous relevant resolutions and notwithstanding prior understandings, the Council hereby establishes the following revised or additional authorities, which shall be binding upon Iraq , to facilitate their work in Iraq:

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall determine the composition of their inspection teams and ensure that these teams are composed of the most qualified and experienced experts available;

-- All UNMOVIC and IAEA personnel shall enjoy the privileges and immunities, corresponding to those of experts on mission, provided in the Convention on Privileges and Immunities of the United Nations and the Agreement on the Privileges and Immunities of the IAEA ;

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have unrestricted rights of entry into and out of Iraq, the right to free, unrestricted, and immediate movement to and from inspection sites, and the right to inspect any sites and buildings, including immediate, unimpeded, unconditional, and unrestricted access to Presidential Sites equal to that at other sites, notwithstanding the provisions of resolution 1154 (1998);

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to be provided by Iraq the names of all personnel currently and formerly associated with Iraq's chemical, biological, nuclear, and ballistic missile programmes and the associated research, development, and production facilities;

-- Security of UNMOVIC and IAEA facilities shall be ensured by sufficient UN security guards;

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to declare, for the purposes of freezing a site to be inspected, exclusion zones, including surrounding areas and transit corridors, in which Iraq will suspend ground and aerial movement so that nothing is changed in or taken out of a site being inspected;

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the free and unrestricted use and landing of fixed- and rotary-winged aircraft, including manned and unmanned reconnaissance vehicles;

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right at their sole discretion verifiably to remove, destroy, or render harmless all prohibited weapons, subsystems, components, records, materials, and other related items, and the right to impound or close any facilities or equipment for the production thereof; and

-- UNMOVIC and the IAEA shall have the right to free import and use of equipment or materials for inspections and to seize and export any equipment, materials, or documents taken during inspections, without search of UNMOVIC or IAEA personnel or official or personal baggage;

8. Decides further that Iraq shall not take or threaten hostile acts directed against any representative or personnel of the United Nations or the IAEA or of any Member State taking action to uphold any Council resolution;

9. Requests the Secretary General immediately to notify Iraq of this resolution, which is binding on Iraq; demands that Iraq confirm within seven days of that notification its intention to comply fully with this resolution; and demands further that Iraq cooperate immediately, unconditionally, and actively with UNMOVIC and the IAEA;

10. Requests all Member States to give full support to UNMOVIC and the IAEA in the discharge of their mandates, including by providing any information related to prohibited programmes or other aspects of their mandates, including on Iraqi attempts since 1998 to acquire prohibited items, and by recommending sites to be inspected, persons to be interviewed, conditions of such interviews, and data to be collected, the results of which shall be reported to the Council by UNMOVIC and the IAEA;

11. Directs the Executive Chairman of UNMOVIC and the Director General of the IAEA to report immediately to the Council any interference by Iraq with inspection activities, as well as any failure by Iraq to comply with its disarmament obligations, including its obligations regarding inspections under this resolution;

12. Decides to convene immediately upon receipt of a report in accordance with paragraphs 4 or 11 above, in order to consider the situation and the need for full compliance with all of the relevant Council resolutions in order to secure international peace and security;

13. Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;

14. Decides to remain seized of the matter.

[Cirdan]

That's for the post, JD. It looks as though the administration has done everything short of backing down to win allied support of the effort against Iraq. It will now be a matter of how successful inspections are measured. Will it be enough to say that weapons of mass destruction were not found, if that is the case? It is difficult to say what the next step would be in such as circumstances other than to declare the inspections flawed, or declare the resolutions as in compliance. It will be an interesting story as it unfolds.

[Draken]

Devil's Advocate time...what if the inspectors find missiles and spray tanks full of influenza virus? Proper, nasty influenza that puts you in bed for a fortnight. Use that on an unprotected population and you'll much increase your chances of defeating them with a follow-up conventional attack.

Maybe we need to think out a stance of weapons of mass incapacitation as well as mass destruction?

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Cirdan
That's for the post, JD. It looks as though the administration has done everything short of backing down to win allied support of the effort against Iraq. It will now be a matter of how successful inspections are measured. Will it be enough to say that weapons of mass destruction were not found, if that is the case? It is difficult to say what the next step would be in such as circumstances other than to declare the inspections flawed, or declare the resolutions as in compliance. It will be an interesting story as it unfolds.

No problem.
Well everyone knows - including the weapons inspectors that they can't really prove that Hussein doesn't have weapons. They're going to have to go in there and try proving that he does.

A while ago Nightline had pointed out that under resolution 687, which the Iraqi government had accepted, that technically the Gulf War had never ended since Hussein did not comply with that resolution. This, it was argued, gave the US a green light to launch an attack on Hussein without having to go back to the UN.

This fact is spelt out in the new resolution.

Recalling that in its resolution 687 (1991) the Council declared that a ceasefire would be based on acceptance by Iraq of the provisions of that resolution, including the obligations on Iraq contained therein,

Contrary to worldwide opinion - I think the US has been very much taking it's time. Again the UN has to prove itself. It's let Iraq walk away from all resolutions without following through on any of the consequences. This time the US won't let that happen. It's going to be either Iraq complies and gives up it's weapons arsenal or it's war. The ball is in Iraq's court now.

[Sister Golden Hair]

This thread again? People, be very very careful in your discussion here. Do not begin ranting and flaming. Stay polite, on topic, and keep it flame free.

[jerseydevil]

Originally posted by Sister Golden Hair
This thread again? People, be very very careful in your discussion here. Do not begin ranting and flaming. Stay polite, on topic, and keep it flame free.

If people stick to the facts and don't bash the US and play "let's blame America" - I'll stay calm.

So far it's calm and I thought it was important to post the resolution here and state that it was APPROVED UNANIMOUSLY. Now we just have to wait and see how Iraq reacts and then see what happens with the UN Inspectors.

[Sister Golden Hair]

Okey dokey JD. It is just a little reminder that I deemed necessary after the last nasty episode.