12-19-2003, 12:46 PM | #481 | |||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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By the way, I am not as yet blessed by it; I believe in the Catholic Church, and the Catholic Church teaches that those who are not formally members (and in a state of grace) are not to receive the Eucharist; therefore, I do not. But I have heard absolutely awesome stories, both spiritual and regarding Eucharistic miracles, and I merely bear witness to the blessing received by Catholics from the beginning of the Catholic Church. Quote:
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12-19-2003, 12:48 PM | #482 | |
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12-19-2003, 01:56 PM | #483 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Perhaps the fact that I'm a descendant of Robert the Bruce explains why I like to run around the house in my skivvies ... or less...
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-19-2003, 02:06 PM | #484 | ||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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And I still don't see the difference between original sin and sin nature in regards to Mary - could you explain it, please? Apparently you're saying Mary had a sin nature, but not original sin - what's the difference?
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-19-2003 at 02:10 PM. |
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12-19-2003, 02:20 PM | #485 | ||||||||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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BTW, that's why it's a bit dangerous, IMO, to have so much emphasis on one church being in the "true line" - it's not a church per se, but it is the people all over the world who are believers that make up the true Church, as I'm sure you would agree. Quote:
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BTW, I've taken communion at a RC church before, because I know I do it to God and I'm a believer. I did NOT intend any disrespect to Catholicism; I just think that my position as a Christian transcends the particular church that is called RC. Does this bother you? Quote:
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-19-2003 at 02:27 PM. |
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12-19-2003, 04:50 PM | #486 | |
Elven Warrior
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I think the main point of contention, in regards to our discussion, is in the word “symbol.” A symbol can be something like a statue of a famous historical person. In this case its pretty obvious that the person is not present in the statue, but that the statue is a symbol in the sense that it reminds the onlooker of a dead guy. In the case of the sacraments, however, the symbol indicates the real presence of grace that we can not see. The Eucharist isn’t a symbol like a statue of a historical person, but is a physical indication that Jesus Christ is truly present in all his majesty and glory. A symbol here is the outward sign of an internal essence that by that essence’s nature can not be sensed by corporeal creatures. In its essence the Eucharist is the body and blood of Jesus Christ, only the accidents remain unchanged. In the laying on of hands a real grace is conferred from God indicated by the physical action. In essence, God confers the sanction of the sacerdotal office and all that implies as a sacrament. It is the existence of this essential real grace that many in the Protestant Movement rejected, first by rejecting the reality indicated by the symbol, then later by rejecting the symbols themselves. (Note: the Lutheran Church claims apostolic succession from the apostles, and claim that the succession of the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches is invalid. Lutherans still have a strong sacramental theology, though it has evolved in significant ways contrary to the Catholic understanding since the 16th century. The Anglican Church also claims apostolic succession that the Eastern Orthodox Churches claim is invalid, and, until only recently, was regarded as valid but illicit by the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church regards the apostolic succession of the Eastern Orthodox Churches as valid.) Division in Christianity is a great scandal and cause for pain. I should re-iterate once again who is to blame for this division. Christian division is due to the stupidity and corruption of Catholics. --Dave
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
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12-19-2003, 05:17 PM | #487 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Original Sin is a sin which Adam and Eve committed, as the father and mother of the human race. According to the Catholic Church, this sin was inherited by mankind afterward, and is washed away by baptism. It is a stain upon the soul, a sin. Concupiscience is the natural tendency to commit sin; it is not a sin in and of itself, but generally it leads to sin; it is of course possible for us, through the grace of God, to resist the temptation to sin brought by concupiscience.
Let me crack out my Catholic Encyclopedia, and see if it's more understandable. Sin, Original. The primary and essential element of original sin is the privation of sactifying grace from, the lack of supernatural life in, the soul of every human creature born into the world since the Fall (but cf. Immaculate Conception); it is not an actual sin [Gwai's Note: Actual Sin theologically refers to an act or omission against the Law of God; a personal sin] but a state of sin in which each individual is involved by virtue of the solidarity of the human race: the will of all humankind rebelled in Adam, the head, fountain and representative of the race, when he rejected God's gift of a supernatural life by disobedience (the Fall). His sin was the sin of human natureand inheres as habitual sin in all who share in hat nature by bodily generation. The effects of original sin are, firstly, its own essence, the loss of sanctyying grace; then, the loss of integrity, resulting in concupiscience, a general propensity towards an uncontrolled love of onself and of creatures; and the loss of immortality and impassibility. It must be noted that the Church repudiates and ahbors the doctrine that concupiscience is itself original sin or that man is wicked by the very condition of his nature as such or that original sin is an essential corruption of the soul. Original sin is entirely remitted, not simply covered up by external imputation of the rigtheousness of Christ, by Baptism, byt concupiscence, the tendecy to sin, and the phsycial disabilities of death and suffering remain. Concupiscence. The general name given to any movement of the sensitive appetities towards whatever the imagination portrays as good or away from whatever it portrays as bad; hence desire, love, hate, are forms of concupiscence. In holy Scripture concupiscence usually means the desire of worldly things. But the word is used particularly of the insubordination of the sensual appetite against the dictates of reason and the general propensity of human nature to sin, in cosequence of the Fall. But this concupiscence must not be identified with original sin. Sorry, it turned out to be a bit longer than I expected... Hope it helps anyway.
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
12-19-2003, 05:36 PM | #488 | |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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Guillaume - So you consider my church to be what? An "invalid" church? A "valid" church but not in the apostolic line? Is it part or NOT part of the Church referred to in the Bible, which is the Bride of Christ, IYO? (Guillaume's opinion) And if not, what does that make me, IYO? A bridesmaid? Or am I, IYO, an "invisible" member of the RC church? Gwai - sorry, that doesn't help, but I"m tired - I'll have to read it again later. I don't see the difference still.
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
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12-19-2003, 06:20 PM | #489 | ||||||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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The Bride of Christ is the Church; and I believe that Christ the Church instituted by Christ is the Catholic Church (a question for those who don't: When do you believe that the Catholic Church came into existence? And what happened to Christ's Church, that it was replaced by Rome's?). I also believe, as I said before, that not all in the Catholic Church are those formally in it; many Protestants I believe are members of the Church. Quote:
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-19-2003, 07:15 PM | #490 |
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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OK - thanks for answering We'll continue to disagree on some points, but that does nothing to affect our friendship, and we can both pray for each other (BTW, I could really use some prayer for wisdom in a school-related issue now...)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! |
12-19-2003, 10:34 PM | #491 | |
Elven Warrior
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Invisible? Rian, you are anything but invisible on this forum
I can’t use the terms “valid” or “invalid” regarding Christians or Christian Churches; I used those terms specifically in regard to the sacraments. You are either a Christian, or you are not. Now we can debate for two hundred pages what it means to be Christian, but I will nip in the bud the most common misconception: sin has nothing to do with it! There are sinful Christians and blameless Christians and repentant Christians and marginal Christians and even Christians turned atheists and Christians turned pagan and Christians turned Hindu, Muslim, Jewish, Wiccan, etc., etc., etc... No matter what you might be doing at the moment, sinning or praying, practicing virtue or vice, no matter if you worship a jolly green giant or a can of spam, once you become a Christian, you are always a Christian! Its an indelible mark conferred at baptism. Baptism not just washes away sin, but it transforms the person into something new... into a Christian. It’s like being born all over again... and hey! that’s from the bible, isn’t it. So, just like I can never be anything but a human being because that was what I was born as, so I can never be anything other than a Christian because that was what I was reborn as through baptism. Now just because I’m a human doesn’t mean that I’m a good human. Just because I’m Christian doesn’t guarantee that I’m a good Christian or even a saved Christian. Like being a good human, being a good Christian takes effort on my part. Thus, I, and, coincidentally, the Catholic Church, accept only one prerequisite in order to regard anyone as a Christian: baptism. (The sacrament of baptism can be conferred by anyone and is considered valid as long as the thing being baptized is a human being, water is used to baptize, and it is done “In the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit [or Ghost, as the case may be].”) So I figure as long as you have been baptized with water and in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, (edit: and it is conferred and recieved in good faith) you are my sister in Christ, and a citizen of the New Jerusalem. The words of the fathers of the second Vatican Council reflect well my own thoughts and feelings regarding other Christian Churches: But even in spite of [obstacles arising from differences in discipline and doctrine] it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in baptism are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church... It follows that the separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficiency from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church. (Decree on Ecumenism, 3.) Quote:
--Dave
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan Last edited by Guillaume le Maréchal : 12-19-2003 at 10:49 PM. |
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12-19-2003, 11:09 PM | #492 | |||
Half-Elven Princess of Rabbit Trails and Harp-Wielding Administrator (beware the Rubber Chicken of Doom!)
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. I should be doing the laundry, but this is MUCH more fun! Ñá ë?* óú éä ïöü Öñ É Þ ð ß ® ç å ™ æ ♪ ?* "How lovely are Thy dwelling places, O Lord of hosts! ... For a day in Thy courts is better than a thousand outside." (from Psalm 84) * * * God rocks! Entmoot : Veni, vidi, velcro - I came, I saw, I got hooked! Ego numquam pronunciare mendacium, sed ego sum homo indomitus! Run the earth and watch the sky ... Auta i lómë! Aurë entuluva! Last edited by Rían : 12-19-2003 at 11:10 PM. |
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12-20-2003, 12:04 AM | #493 | |
Elven Warrior
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Rian,
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An unsaved Christian is anyone who is baptized that for whatever reason chooses not to co-operate with grace. I can’t point out any examples, because we aren’t capable of judging at that level, and its expressly forbidden for us to do so. There is a tradition that all “born-again” Christians are saved. This isn’t the case, though. Baptism or being “born-again,” is no guarantee that one is saved. Just because a Christian is born again of water and spirit does not mean that they are somehow incapable of sinning or falling away from the faith.
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
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12-20-2003, 04:13 AM | #494 | |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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I will pray for you. *has the feeling he wasn't supposed to ask about Ru's church...oops *
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-20-2003, 09:33 AM | #495 | |
High King at Annuminas Administrator
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Once we define this word in our two different ways, it affects everything we say about it. Sometimes we'll be expressing a similar thought - but those thoughts will sound in opposition because of our definitions (I've heard that soon after America came into WW2, England suggested we 'table' the matter of German U-boats, to which the US vehemently objected... in England, this meant to bring it up for discussion, in the US, it meant to postpone discussion on it). And actually - I agree with Guillaume about the possibility of the 'saved' to fall away. Also, Rian, supported by scripture. It may be helpful to view it as 'jumping away' rather than 'falling away' though. It isn't so much an 'oops!' thing as an 'I'm getting outta here' thing. There are actually scriptures to support both views... and I think it's beyond human wisdom to know exactly how they all fit together. At least, it must be, since we get such varying ideas on them. I think that if we, once in Heaven, rush to God with a doctrinal dispute... we'll walk away finding that we were BOTH a bit wrong. But that's getting into the non-essentials - and has to do with whether one's (Protestant) church tends toward being Calvinist, or Wesley-Arminian... or 'Cal-minian' - as I've heard a hybrid described. ... or whatever else. We could easily break up into 'mini-camps of one' around here if we let each matter of doctrine divide us though. Maybe America has had a proliferation of denominations just because of the whole American experience. But, 'Unity on the essentials, tolerance on the non-essentials' (I think that's more paraphrase than quote - of John Wesley ) is a nice standard to go by. |
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12-20-2003, 01:38 PM | #496 | ||
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle |
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12-20-2003, 04:35 PM | #497 |
Dread Mothy Lord and Halfwitted Apprentice Loremaster
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An excellent apologetic for the Catholic Church (as a whole); and I've only finished the "blueprint" page!
I'll see if I can come up with the appropriate selections from the writings of the Fathers at a later time. EDIT: Being an official Dimwitted Apprentice Loremaster, I forgot to post the link. http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/how.htm
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Crux fidelis, inter omnes arbor una nobilis. Nulla talem silva profert, fronde, flore, germine. Dulce lignum, dulce clavo, dulce pondus sustinens. 'With a melon?' - Eric Idle Last edited by Gwaimir Windgem : 12-20-2003 at 04:37 PM. |
12-20-2003, 04:54 PM | #498 | ||
Co-President of Entmoot
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Jesus started one church. It may have been called catholic because that means "the people", but the Catholic Church as we know it today was not the first church. (In fact, no church as we know it today is.)
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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12-20-2003, 08:25 PM | #499 | |
Elven Warrior
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“Catholic” is a Greek word that means “universal,” btw. It was used as early as the first century to designate the body of believers that held the same, universal, doctrines taught by the apostles in opposition to the various Gnostic groups that had begun to incorporate practices from the mystery cults. It is interesting to note that Saint Ignatius of Antioch (AD 50-c.198) held that the catholic faith was that faith held by the bishops, the successors of the apostles. We know for sure that Ignatius wrote six letters to the Christian communities in Ephesus, Magnesia, Philadelphia, Tralles, Rome, Smyrna, and one letter to the an individual, Polycarp. Ignatius’ letters are of extreme importance because they demonstrate the realities of early church structure only fifty or so years after the death and resurrection of Jesus. In the course of his letters he outlines: (1) the Church was divinely established as a visible society for the salvation of souls (Phil, 3); (2) the unity of the Church is dependent on the episcopacy--the bishops as successors of the apostles (Mag. 6); (3) the hierarchy of the Church--bishops, priests, deacons, laity--was established by Jesus (Smy. 8); (4) the doctrine of the Eucharist (Smy. 8); (5) the use of the term “Catholic Church” to designate all Christians who hold the faith taught by the apostles and preserved by their successors (Ephesus., 5); (6) the primacy of the See of Rome (introduction to his letter to the Romans); (7) rejects the notion that private judgement is adequate to determine matters of pertaining to religion (Phil. 3); (8) the central place of communal worship and liturgy in the life of the Church (Ephes. 13); (9) the merit of virginity (Poly. 5). In outline, the whole of the Catholic Church’s structure was present and treated as well established by a Christian writer, writing only 40-50 years after Jesus founded the Church. So like I said, it depends on what you consider “same.”
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Miserable mourning is never the equal of noble action; nor are rest and relaxation as good as war, trouble and action. --Bertran de Born, Knight and Troubadour Castle Duncan |
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12-20-2003, 09:09 PM | #500 | |||
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By same, I meant there were no different denominations like Protestant, Anglican, Catholic, Lutheran, United etc. I agree with you that it's good the church has changed.
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"I can add some more, if you'd like it. Calling your Chief Names, Wishing to Punch his Pimply Face, and Thinking you Shirriffs look a lot of Tom-fools." - Sam Gamgee, p. 340, Return of the King Quote:
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