The Anti-theist Thread

[emplynx]

Originally posted by jerseydevil

Since this is a anti-theism thread - and we're supposed to be discussing that - why don't you guys believe in evolution? Science is approaching proof that we did evolve and still are evolving.

Show me the evidence. Nothing I have ever heard proves evolution. The idea that I came from a single cell organism that was the result of an explosion is unbelievable to me. (I know you all are going to say that the idea of coming from an unknown god is unbelievable, but I don't care.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
I just don't believe in a god period. Is it possible there is one- yes it is. Anything is possible. Is it probable - not really.

Oh, and evolution is so probably.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
The church swore the sun revolved around the earth and that the earth was the center of everything.

That came directly from scientists.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Why do you think that some people are so afraid to find aliens. It is far more statistically probable to find more advanced civilizations out in the universes than it is that god exists.

I wish Christians weren't afraid of that; God is soverign.

Originally posted by jerseydevil

If god is all knowing and the bible was "written" by him - then why doesn't it mention anything outside of what the people in the middle east knew? The ice caps are never mentioned, north america isn't, dinosaurs aren't in the bible at all, the mammoths. Nothing isw in the bible other than what the men living in the middle east knew about.

It is inspired by God, not written. It is written by Middle-Eastern men. They never saw ice caps nor did God show them mammoths, so they didn't write about them.

[jerseydevil]

It could have been an elephant it was talking about. The large dinosaurs most likely did not eat grass - but trees.

[jerseydevil]

Well if god created all men - why didn't he come and visit the Indians in North America or the Mayans in South America?

And by the way - the church for years excommunicated scientists or anyone that said the world did not revolve around the world.

Scientifically - the big bang theory is possible. All we are is organic matter. Matter that is found throughout the universe.

[mirrille]

Uh-huh.

Yeah. So poetic descriptions aside (bones of bronze and so on), the Behemoth is basically a really strong animal that eats grass and has a tail. That could be anything! So what's your point?

Come to think of it, I believe in the Christian god like I believe in aliens or leprechauns. That is to say, I'm not denying they exist. I can't do that because I just don't know. "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" And I can't remember who that quote is from, but it's true. But I've never seen one, so I can't say that they exist either and I'm not taking someone else's word for it. That goes for various forest spirits, thunder gods, all-powerful creator gods from a dozen different world religions, deer-headed gods responsible for bringing solar eclipses, and whatever else you can throw at me. I'm very fairminded. Everyone has an equal chance at being disbelieved.

On second thought, aliens seem more probable to me than thunder gods, but not significantly, and there's no real evidence either way.

[Wayfarer]

A-Elf.

That there are facts is not a matter of faith.
I have faith that the facts support creation, you have faith that they support evolution.

But the evidence, either way, is subject to interpretation.

For example, if there was X amount of Uranium in a sample, and no lead, and the rate of decay is constant, then it would have taken so many years for it to decompose into the amount of lead there is in the sample now. This would prove that the earth was at least so and so years old. I'll admit this is a fact.

However, it's impossible to say that it does prove the age of the earth, because we don't know how much of each element was there to begin with, whether any of either was added, or if the rate of decay has changed. So you can't say defenitively that the earth is X years old.

On the other hand, I've heard creationist arguements from gradualism that are equally plausable.

For example, the earth's magnetic field is decaying and a certain rate. Projecting that back in time, and assuming that the rate of decay is constant, it would be impossible to live on earth even a few million years ago.

Another one was the sun's diameter, which shrinks at a fairly constant rate. Projecting that back in time, the sun should supposedly have enveloped the earth a few billion years ago.

I myself am not supporting these arguements, because I believe that they can be explained through other means. I'm a fairly large critic of gradualism all around.

The other evidences involved are equally suspect in my eyes.

There are species and organisms that are physiologyically similar?
This, first, does not prove that they had a common ancestor, and, secondly, does not give any reason to believe in the divergence of all species even if it did.

I was interested to read recently that several species of crab, some of them remarkably similar to each other in physiology, were tested and found to have been genetically similar to ten different crustaceans. One was close to a lobster, another close to a shrimp, etc. The conclusion was that they must have evolved convergently from these different animals.

So I ask you- how should I view similarity between humans and other species, in light of the fact that even evolutionists don't always agree that this means a divergence?

My final statement- Evolution ws not particularly convincing even before I became a Christian, and it remains popular only with people who wish to stick with a naturalistic or humanistic philosophy at all costs.

[Wayfarer]

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Well if god created all men - why didn't he come and visit the Indians in North America or the Mayans in South America?

Do you remember montezuma and cortez? The mayans who thought that the europeans were 'white gods'? Do you know why that was? They had a story about how one of their gods, quetzecoatal, who sacrificed himself for them, and would some day return to usher in an age of peace. Or something.

Like eveyrone else, they had part of whe picture. Unfortunately, some bloody Europeans took advantage of it and killed thousands of them. Suxor.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
And by the way - the church for years excommunicated scientists or anyone that said the world did not revolve around the world.

Is that any different from BoP's article claiming that a scientist/evolutionist, who merely acknowledged the possibility that evolution was wrong, was a 'traitor to science'? Honestly?

The church was incredibly stupid in that and many instances. I'm with you there. I'd go so far as to say that most christians today have got the wrong idea about christianity.

The church was a human institution that, by that point in time, was extremely off track. They still haven't gotten somke things straight.

Originally posted by jerseydevil
Scientifically - the big bang theory is possible. All we are is organic matter. Matter that is found throughout the universe.

Sure it's possible. Not likely, but possible. As I've heard so many times already, so are pink unicorns.

My big beef is that the big bang supposedly starts with all the matter in the universe bunched up into a tiny ball. Where did the matter come from in the first place? how did it get there? A big crunch? and before that? Always been there? In that case, it whouldn't have had enought momentup to build up that energy. Not to mention that the universe would be stagnant as far as energy.

Afro Elf... your bad typing is starting to rub off on me, friend. Either that or it's the strain of typing at 120 words per minute.

[jerseydevil]

Well in Discover Magazine they had a good article on the Big Bang - actually before the big bang. There is an article on the Theory of Inflation in the April 2002 issue

On April 21st the Discovery Channel is having on "The Real Eve - Could Every Human be Genetically Related to One Woman Who Lived 150,000 Years Ago?

[mirrille]

Originally posted by Wayfarer
So I ask you- how should I view similarity between humans and other species, in light of the fact that even evolutionists don't always agree that this means a divergence?

Woah! You're one to talk.
Christians as a group can't even agree on the basic ideas of their faith. There are so many different Protestant groups that I can't even keep track of them all. Some were formed for political reasons, but some were because of conflicts on the interpretation of the faith. I'm most familiar with Catholics, as that was my original upbringing, but some issues that seem to be contested include the transmutation of Eucharist (is it really the body and blood of Christ or just symbollically transmuted?), a couple of the other sacraments (technicalities about baptism, as I remember), the importance of saints and the Virgin Mary in the grand scheme of things. And the most disturbing is that what is thought to be required for "salvation" and what exactly "salvation" means can vary subtley from group to group. It's interesting, because sometimes the differences are quite subtle, but once you see it, it's a huge difference, from a philosophy point of view.
So really, the naturalists and the theists have more in common than you think. I guess the major difference is that scientists are trained to question everything. "Did your result really mean this, or could it also mean that? How would you test it? Does it agree with that other data? No? Can't tell either way? Oh...Let's try something else." Also, I know quite a few religious evolutionary biologists. They're doing fine, thank you.

[afro-elf]

My final statement- Evolution ws not particularly convincing even before I became a Christian, and it remains popular only with people who wish to stick with a naturalistic or humanistic philosophy at all costs.

this made me laugh because




My final statement-the idea of a CHRISTIAN GOD was not particularly convincing even before I became a NON-THEIST , and it remains popular only with people who wish to stick with a SUPERNATURAL or RELIGIOUS philosophy at all costs

[Wayfarer]

Good point, mirille.

However, there is one small distinction.

Christians all agree on the things that matter.

I imagine when we get to heaven it will be like "Oh, you think that was bad? Why... I made a fuss about the stupidest things. Would you believe that I thought..."

off the subject.

Anyway. I got the impression that Jersydevil and BoP were trying to tell me that similarities between different animals were an evidence of evolution. Whereas evolutionists can't even decide what they mean.

Whereas, as CS Lewis said, 'the differences between christian denominations only matters to someone who has already become a christian'.

[afro-elf]

seem we posted at the same time wayfarer

I think my typing errorship is affecting everyone here

[Wayfarer]

Indeed.

Now, regarding your last post:

i've been saying that all along... well, for a while.

You choose one or the other.

You take that view on faith.

In this regard they're both very similar.

[afro-elf]

In this regard they're both very similar.

i concur whole heartedly

[afro-elf]

The church swore the sun revolved around the earth and that the earth was the center of everything.

That came directly from scientists

You forget three important things that was a view held my aristotle and ptolemy that MOST accepted. there were anceint greeks how difffered. one even calculated the diameter of the earth

AND there are passages through out the BIBLE that support this

and science being self correcting found out it was wrong

[Wayfarer]

Remember, there are also passages in the bible that say some Israelites had the faces of lions. ]: )

[Rána Eressëa]

I've been raising up my hands - drive another nail in
Got enough guilt to start my own religion

Why do we crucify ourselves?
Every day I crucify myself
Nothing I do is good enough for you
I crucify myself
Every day I crucify myself
And my heart is sick of being in...
I said my heart is sick of being in chains.

There's a little Tori Amos for you. As for me, my heart had also gotten sick of being in chains. I'm happier, healthier, and wiser after I had decided to seek what was outside of religion. I was tired of trying to live up to being perfect - it was not worth it. The image they tried forcing me to sculpt myself into could not be done, as is the same for every person. Why try being something you know you can't be? Why not try to be what you are: human. You are not an angel, you are not a demon. You are not a god, you are not a devil. You are human.

[Wayfarer]

I nearly drove myself insane wondering what your rhyming scheme was before I realized there isn't one. ]: )

[Starr Polish]

RE, the aspect of the Christian religion isn't to be perfect. It's to accept the fact that we aren't, and to rely on Jesus to help us fix our faults. Does that mean we will ever be perfect? No, of course not. Like you said, we are not angels, we are not a god, we are human. God knows that we will fall short of His Glory...thus the entire reason for Jesus.

I went through a tumultuous (sp? I love that word) a little more than a year ago, where I questioned leaving what I had always known (Christianity) and becoming an atheist or Wiccan. There were...things...that made me want to do this, but after going to an incredibly powerful church production and truly searching myself, I finally managed to let go of some things that were holding me back from being happy, and I gave them to God. I'm glad you are happy know, but never stop your spiritual walk.

[Rána Eressëa]

Originally posted by Starr Polish
RE, the aspect of the Christian religion isn't to be perfect. It's to accept the fact that we aren't, and to rely on Jesus to help us fix our faults.

In the end, however, it all comes back to being perfect. If Jesus fixes our faults, we become perfect. I don't care how much someone says it's possible: we cannot become perfect. Not through ourselves, not through society, and not through spiritual reliance.

[Nibs]

[edit] Dang! I forgot I'm not posting here any more! Forgive me.