The Singers Thread

[Voronwen]

Why replace it? I mean who's your audience? Most people only know of opera, even Magic Flute, in a very vague sort of way. They barely know snatches of the arias and certainly have no idea who the characters are. Unless you make a huge point out of it, or you have someone who's an opera lover, they'll have no idea.

Haha, this is true! And i'm one of those voices that can do both roles - if the director wants a lighter-voiced Queen or a more soubrette-like Pamina. And, we never know, maybe there'll be someone in that audience who could give me an opportunity. I love singing both arias, they're like two sides of who i am as a singer. Pamina is all about the lyrical, controlled, heartbreaking pathos, and the Queen is all about the movement and the stratosphere and the glittery drama All kinds of fun!

Mini-rant: I just have to say that it stinks sharing a house with other family members. People are coming and going at all times, different schedules, needing sleep at weird times, etc that it leaves me precious few hours a week to fit in practice Ah, this too shall pass!

Re. your tension, pitch issue, etc (it's all related, imho) --- My instinct is telling me that your problem is coming from 'thinking too much'. I feel from what you've written that it'll all fall into place when you stop this kind of thinking:

I think it's really a mental thing. The tension comes from that gigantic ball of worry that I hold in the back of my head that says, "What if my voice cracks? What if the person standing next to me hates my singing? What if the director decides he doesn't like my voice any more? What if I think I'm singing well and I really sound horrible?

And it sounds like you know this already Sometimes, especially since we singers are often perfectionists (i'm guilty!!! ), we can sabotage ourselves by being our own worst enemy. We tend to get in our own way sometimes. Yes, there *is* a lot to think about, i won't pretend there isn't. But i can speak from experience and say that i've done some of my best singing when i have just let go of obsessing over technique. That's not to say that we don't have to, because we do. But we need to keep it in its place, and we can't let it become more important than expression. Once your technique is in place (ie. becomes habit), there does come a time when you need to just feel the music, and soar on its wings. Your body knows what to do.

There comes a point in time when there is a time and place for working on technique (ie. obsessing ), and a time and place for just making music.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

Haha, this is true! And i'm one of those voices that can do both roles - if the director wants a lighter-voiced Queen or a more soubrette-like Pamina. And, we never know, maybe there'll be someone in that audience who could give me an opportunity. I love singing both arias, they're like two sides of who i am as a singer. Pamina is all about the lyrical, controlled, heartbreaking pathos, and the Queen is all about the movement and the stratosphere and the glittery drama All kinds of fun!

Have I already asked about Glitter and Be Gay? That's a song with not only some epic high notes, but room to interpolate a few higher ones if the singer feels like it. Might be another great show stopper... maybe the closing piece?

Mini-rant: I just have to say that it stinks sharing a house with other family members. People are coming and going at all times, different schedules, needing sleep at weird times, etc that it leaves me precious few hours a week to fit in practice Ah, this too shall pass!

Gah! That does stink. >.< Sorry about that.

Re. your tension, pitch issue, etc (it's all related, imho) --- My instinct is telling me that your problem is coming from 'thinking too much'. I feel from what you've written that it'll all fall into place when you stop this kind of thinking:

My teacher would shake your hand right now, then give me a knowing, "Mmmmhm, see? I know what I'm talking about, Mister!" look if she heard you say that .



Guess what I did today when I was singing in the shower.... and may have been pretending to be Placido Domingo *cough* ....? I think I sang a little TOO open, but DANG!!!!!! It's something that I've done before, and pulled away from very quickly because occasionally there will be these tiny little flickers of what I thought was pain.

Buuuuut now I'm not so sure. When it happened, my first thought was, "Ah, crap, I've sung too open and now my voice is going to be shot for the rest of the day." But then I started analyzing what I'd really felt, and I realized that there was indeed a tiny flicker of pain, but it was from suddenly tightening slightly, and I thought, "What if my throat is so used to singing with the tight muscular control that the flickers of pain are coming from it trying to jerk back to its usual closed tightness?"

So I played around with it some more, against my own fears and better judgment.... and I think I might be on to something. I recorded it, and at first I was like, "Eww, that sounds gross," but the more I worked with it... I think it might be the correct way. I think maybe it is just a hair too open, but what's interesting is that except for those tiny little flicks of discomfort when my throat attempts to tense up, it feels fine, and after practicing for a while my throat still feels great.

One interesting thing is that along with those little blips of discomfort, it's like my voice will also 'glitch' slightly for a second sometimes... like the cords don't quite come together for a second... BUT... that happened less the more I worked with it. Could that just be the muscles 'twitching' as they attempt to return to their old pattern?

I'm going to try it for my teacher tomorrow and see what she says.

The thing that really, really makes me have a hunch that it's correct is that I floated almost totally effortlessly up to a G when I was vocalizing, and I was so perfectly, completely on pitch that it surprised me. Even when my voice glitched a little bit in my lower range, the pitch didn't go astray. Isn't that odd? I'll have to ask her.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Have I already asked about Glitter and Be Gay? That's a song with not only some epic high notes, but room to interpolate a few higher ones if the singer feels like it. Might be another great show stopper... maybe the closing piece?

I. hate. Glitter and Be Gay.

My closing piece is Je suis Titania!

My teacher would shake your hand right now, then give me a knowing, "Mmmmhm, see? I know what I'm talking about, Mister!" look if she heard you say that .

LOL! Well, people have been telling me for years now that i should teach. It's when i hear things like this that i start thinking about it again..... Maybe i should!

Guess what I did today when I was singing in the shower.... and may have been pretending to be Placido Domingo *cough* ....? I think I sang a little TOO open, but DANG!!!!!! It's something that I've done before, and pulled away from very quickly because occasionally there will be these tiny little flickers of what I thought was pain.

Buuuuut now I'm not so sure. When it happened, my first thought was, "Ah, crap, I've sung too open and now my voice is going to be shot for the rest of the day." But then I started analyzing what I'd really felt, and I realized that there was indeed a tiny flicker of pain, but it was from suddenly tightening slightly, and I thought, "What if my throat is so used to singing with the tight muscular control that the flickers of pain are coming from it trying to jerk back to its usual closed tightness?"

ROCK ON!!!!!

Playing around like this can sometimes lead to a breakthrough! It sounds as if you've found a more relaxed throat position - and maybe, just maybe, as a result, you will uncover a more sizeable instrument Tensions can make a voice seem smaller, because of all the constricting... but, onward.....

So I played around with it some more, against my own fears and better judgment.... and I think I might be on to something. I recorded it, and at first I was like, "Eww, that sounds gross," but the more I worked with it... I think it might be the correct way. I think maybe it is just a hair too open, but what's interesting is that except for those tiny little flicks of discomfort when my throat attempts to tense up, it feels fine, and after practicing for a while my throat still feels great.

One interesting thing is that along with those little blips of discomfort, it's like my voice will also 'glitch' slightly for a second sometimes... like the cords don't quite come together for a second... BUT... that happened less the more I worked with it. Could that just be the muscles 'twitching' as they attempt to return to their old pattern?

YES! That is exactly what's happening. Providing you are not pushing or forcing anything, mind you!

I'm going to try it for my teacher tomorrow and see what she says.

By all means, do!

The thing that really, really makes me have a hunch that it's correct is that I floated almost totally effortlessly up to a G when I was vocalizing, and I was so perfectly, completely on pitch that it surprised me. Even when my voice glitched a little bit in my lower range, the pitch didn't go astray. Isn't that odd? I'll have to ask her.

Yes, do run all of this by her. She can hear you, and i cannot But it sounds to me as if you have found more of an "open throat"..... And, this can only be a good thing!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Out of curiosity, have you ever sung the Air des Clochettes from Lakme? That's a simply gorgeous piece, and from what you've said I suspect it might fit your voice well; am I right?

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

I. hate. Glitter and Be Gay.

Wow, is that the time?! I had no idea it was so late... I just realized I have a thing to go do somewhere else, and we can never, ever speak again.

But really, why don't you like Glitter and Be Gay? O_o I mean dang... that's one of my most favorite songs eveeeeeeer. Particularly when Dawn Upshaw sings it. But then I tend to love anything she sings sooo....

LOL!Well, people have been telling me for years now that i should teach. It's when i hear things like this that i start thinking about it again..... Maybe i should!

Maybe! I mean heck, why not? Try taking on a few Highschool level students or something and see how you feel about it... Teaching can be, as I'm sure you know, such an incredibly, incredibly rewarding experience.

and maybe, just maybe, as a result, you will uncover a more sizeable instrument Tensions can make a voice seem smaller, because of all the constricting

I don't think my voice is any bigger, but I often get the comment "I would love to hear you sing out more," even after I've just sung my loudest fortes. I think that's because my voice was covered and constricted, so now that it's not as much.... I don't think bigger is the right word, but I believe my sound is fuller.

Yes, do run all of this by her. She can hear you, and i cannot But it sounds to me as if you have found more of an "open throat"..... And, this can only be a good thing!

That's exactly what happened, and I have to say... today it worked even better than yesterday! I was super excited. I described it to my teacher, and she said, "Well, lets see what all is happening," and BOOM... awesomeness ensued . I did the Bb4 with less effort than on Thursday, and I had no difficulty at all sailing through my passage areas.

What's really cool too is that my melismas were cleaner than they've ever been before, which is super exciting, and singing Warm As The Autumn Light was a total walk in the park, which has never happened before.

We also figured out how to get back some of my 'super lows' that have sort of... dried out... over the last couple of months. A year back I was singing low E's, then I started struggling with the low G's, and till this afternoon my low F's were getting to be sort of iffy, but we figured out how to regain solidity... it's all about the mouth shape in this case.


Now one thing I'm trying to figure out is how to do the... I think the technical term is 'voce di finte'.... Basically that really light, falsetto-like voice up at the top when they don't want to full voice something. It's that super 'gentle' sound, which I think is really pretty as an effect. I think maybe I have the startings of being able to do it, but it's too weak right now. Maybe the vowels are wrong. After this competition business is over I'm going to ask my teacher about it.

[Varnafindë]

You're expanding both your high and your low notes? Amazing

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

Out of curiosity, have you ever sung the Air des Clochettes from Lakme? That's a simply gorgeous piece, and from what you've said I suspect it might fit your voice well; am I right?

Ah, that one's a beast! Yes, it would fit my voice well, and i often sing the opening cadenza as a sort of party trick But i have never studied the entire piece. Someday, i will have to tackle it!

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Wow, is that the time?! I had no idea it was so late... I just realized I have a thing to go do somewhere else, and we can never, ever speak again.

But really, why don't you like Glitter and Be Gay? O_o I mean dang... that's one of my most favorite songs eveeeeeeer.

I just don't like it. It just annoys me, for some reason. Probably because i've heard it done badly (yes, even by professionals!) one time too many. I think it takes a certain "jazzy" kind of musicality, which is something that not many classical singers have (including myself... hello, baroque girl, here! ). Not having any feel for that sort of thing myself, i'll be the first to admit that i could not do the piece any justice. Also when you hate what you're singing, it just shows. Not for me, thanks!

Maybe! I mean heck, why not? Try taking on a few Highschool level students or something and see how you feel about it... Teaching can be, as I'm sure you know, such an incredibly, incredibly rewarding experience.

Yes, it is. I have coached and/or taught several people informally, and it was quite an experience to help get them to a place where their audition piece was up to performance standard, or to get them to a technical place where they could access their whole range, place notes properly, etc. It's something i'll continue to consider!

The main fly in the ointment is that i do not play piano. I know my way around a keyboard, yes, but i cannot really play. My hands are child-sized, and i only have a reach of a 7th or so. God just didn't make me to make music with my hands!

I don't think bigger is the right word, but I believe my sound is fuller.

Ah, now i completely understand That makes total sense.

What's really cool too is that my melismas were cleaner than they've ever been before, which is super exciting, and singing Warm As The Autumn Light was a total walk in the park, which has never happened before.

As a completely random aside, i sing some of the Baby Doe arias (Dearest Mama and the Willow Song). Did i ever tell you that? I think maybe i have.

Now one thing I'm trying to figure out is how to do the... I think the technical term is 'voce di finte'.... Basically that really light, falsetto-like voice up at the top when they don't want to full voice something. It's that super 'gentle' sound, which I think is really pretty as an effect. I think maybe I have the startings of being able to do it, but it's too weak right now. Maybe the vowels are wrong. After this competition business is over I'm going to ask my teacher about it.

I know what you're talking about. It's something that is usually used as an exercise to help male voices access their head voice/upper notes. It also helps take inappropriate weight off the middle voice. I don't have experience teaching males of your technical level, so there's not much else i can say about that. I'm glad you seem to be in yet another season of breakthroughs, though!

[Gwaimir Windgem]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

I think it takes a certain "jazzy" kind of musicality, which is something that not many classical singers have (including myself... hello, baroque girl, here! ).

That's no excuse; I've heard Sarah Connolly do some mighty fine jazz.

But seriously, yah, most classical singers can't really do non-classical music. I'd much rather hear Aretha Franklin sing Nessun dorma than hear Renee Fleming try to sing Muse. (What is that woman THINKING???) I made the mistake of getting Chanticleer's jazz album, and it really, really doesn't work.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Gwaimir Windgem

But seriously, yah, most classical singers can't really do non-classical music. I'd much rather hear Aretha Franklin sing Nessun dorma than hear Renee Fleming try to sing Muse. (What is that woman THINKING???)

ACK!!!!! Yes, i've heard some of her non-classical attempts. It's just awful!!!!

I think some singers can 'cross over', but others can't. I'm still trying to figure out whether i can, or not. I think i can, if i stick to a very limited amount of Broadway (ie. the old classic shows that actually call for legitimate sopranos!), and Celtic. But that's really about all.

[Tessar]

Originally Posted by Voronwen

ACK!!!!! Yes, i've heard some of her non-classical attempts. It's just awful!!!!

You know, I've been becoming strangely, obsessively fond of Renee Fleming's recordings (despite her awful scooping and whatnot) lately. But yeah... not even slightly for her jazz or modern stuff. Blergh.



So today I made an interesting discovery in my lesson. My lower abs still get super tight when I sing... I never really noticed it before because I was so busy trying to get my throat open and lift my ribs.

Now that my throat's open though, it's like my body's going, "Okay! Ready?! HEAVE!!!---Ah, crap, wait the throat's open! Abort! Abort! We don't need to tighten!"
"Captain, we can't abort! All lower abdominals have already been tightened!"
"Dammit man, think of SOMETHING!"

... anywhooo.....

It's mainly a problem on Der Vogelfenger because I have to take such rapid breaths during the phrases. When my lower abs are tight I just don't have time to get a good breath. So that's something to continue working on.

You may have been right about the bigger voice thing. I've been finding that suddenly when I think I've hit my peak volume, and I inadvertently relax in an attempt to sing the next word softer, I actually sing even louder than before, and certainly louder than I thought I could. Which... is not so great for my dynamic control, but it's great to be so 'open' that things like that can happen.

My voice teacher agrees with you, and she actually thinks that I have even more volume and 'size' in my voice for us to continue to discover. It's exciting! I'm certainly not pushing to make a bigger sound, but it's nice to know that my voice probably still has even more room to grow. A bigger voice can't be a bad thing for me, so long as I can learn not to accidentally sing loud when I'm trying to sing softly!


We were laughing at the end of my lesson, remembering how eight months ago when I started with her I was complaining because she had me singing with such a 'wimpy' sound.... but because we did that, and I trusted her enough to do it, now I have a voice that's probably twice the size it used to be, and about a thousand times more consistent.

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

Now that my throat's open though, it's like my body's going, "Okay! Ready?! HEAVE!!!---Ah, crap, wait the throat's open! Abort! Abort! We don't need to tighten!"
"Captain, we can't abort! All lower abdominals have already been tightened!"
"Dammit man, think of SOMETHING!"

You are hilarious! I needed the laugh!

You may have been right about the bigger voice thing. I've been finding that suddenly when I think I've hit my peak volume, and I inadvertently relax in an attempt to sing the next word softer, I actually sing even louder than before, and certainly louder than I thought I could. Which... is not so great for my dynamic control, but it's great to be so 'open' that things like that can happen.

My voice teacher agrees with you, and she actually thinks that I have even more volume and 'size' in my voice for us to continue to discover. It's exciting! I'm certainly not pushing to make a bigger sound, but it's nice to know that my voice probably still has even more room to grow. A bigger voice can't be a bad thing for me, so long as I can learn not to accidentally sing loud when I'm trying to sing softly!


We were laughing at the end of my lesson, remembering how eight months ago when I started with her I was complaining because she had me singing with such a 'wimpy' sound.... but because we did that, and I trusted her enough to do it, now I have a voice that's probably twice the size it used to be, and about a thousand times more consistent.

This all sounds very promising!

[Tessar]

I think I've discovered a better sense of legato . I was singing, and noticing how my throat tightened instinctively when I tried to sing the word 'all', as if my tongue and jaw were already trying to move to create the consonant. I also always struggle with 'n's and 'm's not to accidentally get 'stuck' on them or begin them too early.

I tried imagining JUST the next vowel I wanted to sing... so I had to sing pretty slowly , but it seemed to work. I ended up 'working' the phrase "so in love with you am I," from "So in love" (just for kicks... I'm not currently working on it or anything), and DANG. O_o It made a huge improvement in my overall sound to add that legato movement.

So it looks like I may need to do a 'slow' overhaul of my current rep to see if I can't work in this new legato ability .

[Tessar]

OMG!!!!!! I am suuuuuuuuuper excited!!!!!! I'm gonna sing A Chloris again! We realized I can't confidently learn Les Cygnes in time so my teacher said 'ever heard of A Chloris?' I pretty much flipped out with excitement!! SO HAPPY!!!

A Chloris has been one of my favorite songs for ages and I sang it my Freshman year but couldn't sustain the high part at the end... But now I totally can and I can even pianissimo it .

[Voronwen]

WONDERFUL, Tessar!!!

Isn't it a great feeling to finally be able to do justice to a favorite piece? I was like that with Mozart's "Ah, se in ciel, benigne stelle" - when i could finally sing it well, i was on cloud nine!

[Tessar]

So, my teacher gave me a SUPER cool trick that I love to death and I think helped me make a breakthrough on my support.

You put a finger vertically against your lips, like you're shushing someone, and breath in through your mouth. Your breath automatically drops SUPER low into your body. O_o It shocked me the first time she showed me. It's actually really difficult, although not impossible, to keep from taking a low breath if you put the finger in front of your mouth.

I've noticed that now when I take a breath like that, I'm able to sing with more freedom (particularly through my A#3 passagio area leading up to the Middle/mix/whatever voice), and my placement is better. Just using the finger-breath trick every other page or so helps remind me to keep breathing low.

I've also started using it for every breath during warm ups and intense exercises, and it is SUCH a help, particularly now that we're working our way up to those high B flats at every lesson. Those are super hard O_o. Not on my throat or anything, it just takes so much energy to sing. I'm pretty sure I'll never perform them, but who knows? Maybe I have even more of a top extension than we thought. Still definitely not a tenor, though .

[Voronwen]

Originally Posted by Tessar

I'm pretty sure I'll never perform them, but who knows?

*Never* say never!

[Tessar]

So now they want an ITALIAN aria for this Friday, auditioning for an opera that we still don't know what it is.

This stupid opera, whatever it is, can bite me. Unless I get a part, then I'll be like, "Awesome!" but otherwise it can bite me. Blargh.

Looks like it's time to haul out Ho Capito. It's not very impressive, buuut it does offer opportunity to act, so maybe that will be good enough to get me in. That's what the director seems to be looking for in the auditions... the acting. I hope. Geeze. -_-

[Tessar]

So, today pretty much kicked butt all around.

The drive down to and back from the competition was long (2:45 each way), but when I got there around 9:50 in the morning I walked into a practice room and vocalized up to a solid A4 several times with absolutely no hitches through the D/E area. That's when it really hit me that I might have a chance .

So I sang, made the finals, and then sang again and took third. The two guys who took second and first were FABULOUS singers, so believe me I think the ranking was well appointed. I'm just so grateful to have won third place .

I think this is a great step along the way.... last semester I made simi-finals at the big competition, this semester I made finals at the little one... by the grace of God maybe I'll make finals at the big competition next semester. My voice teacher is very confident that I'll be able to do it if I can keep rolling over the summer.

That's all great, but I'm just so thrilled to have been able to perform well, and to have a feeling that my voice was actually going to be reliable. Even at the beginning of this semester I was struggling to sing the E's in my pieces, and now I can work them out without even warming up... and when I am well warmed up they're easy. Hopefully now I can start to try tackling some of the show-stopper pieces with F's and G's.


You know what really surprised me, though? How incredibly stressful singing in the finals was. I would have thought that just knowing that even if I screwed up royally I would still place would have calmed me and made it as easy as pie, but I was very surprised to find that it was actually about 10x more stressful than the preliminaries had been. I loved it, but it was definitely exhausting.

[Earniel]

Woohoo, progress! Go Tessar!