Discussion Thread Number 5 Of Wraiths-Kings-Friends-Rings Campaign

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by Valandil

I DO plan to have some "reasonable" means to find out. Please keep in mind the leeway that you Nazgul have been given in regards to all the things you do though. If I need to make use of my sword or some other special means - it'll probably be to equalize an imbalance a little further.

Val, I don't quite understand your concepts of "equalizing imbalances." Perhaps the problem is I do not understand the concept of this game. I joined under the assumption that the goal was creative writing. Apparently, I was incorrect. I supposed erroneously, obviously, that a group of players, writers, participants, whatever you want to call them, would toss up some creative ideas for plots, and the group would work on these ideas and try to get something that read well. Again, I was wrong.

There must be some unknown system of "winners" and "losers." I have not quite figured out yet how this will ever be determined. Perhaps we wait a specified amount of time and then bring it to a vote of the player base.

I would like to see some creative writing attempts, good plotlines, and not this constant debate about where the story, game, endeavor, "thing," should go, or who picks up an invisible "merit" point.

If there is constant stifling of plot ideas, this is not a game, this is not a writing an exercise, this is an exercise in futility.

Can't we come up with mutually agreed upon plot ideas and we all run with them? Otherwise, this game, whatever, is going to stagnate with tedious plot ideas that go nowhere.

"Leeway?" Just what does that mean? I would hope that everyone had some degree of "leeway" in proposing plot ideas. With all these - what shall we call them? - "dispensations" - to one side or another, I think we become rather absurd.

You can write about magic swords that jump, dance or sing, or are "magic weapons" that resemble machine guns. I will say go ahead. If it is creative, it is good. If it is not, it is bad.

There are twelve lousy stinking pirate ships, each with about 50 men. This was not some kind of major invasion, but more like a raid. It reads well if you just roll with the idea. If it is a poor plot concept for a storyline, just can the whole idea in File 13.

Maybe we all could just play chess or something by email. Any takers?

[The last sane person]

I agree completely Udu. Its driving me nuts. I'll take you up on that chess game.

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by The last sane person

I agree completely Udu. Its driving me nuts. I'll take you up on that chess game.

TLSP, I have always found chess by email is very relaxing and enjoyable. I have played quite a few myself. My only problem is I seldom win.

[Grey_Wolf]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

GW, my characters don't have magic - could you please PM me with your ideas about the attack on Tyaron? I don't know how he would be expected to defend against these creatures, unless they take on animal forms again and he kills the forms with his sword (but he's too weak at this point), and I object to my characters being killed What do you have in mind?

Rian, Have edited #774. Will the added paragraph do?

[CrazySquirrel]

I agree with Udu.

We should NOT mix WARGAME and common STORY writing. These two "modes" have absolutely different rules.

Let us take my Lilly. Most of what she does is HARMFUL to FOEAD. Do you think I am stupid enough not to understand it?

In a wargame I would have never allowed my character any of her silly pranks. She would have been a perfect nazgul.

If I write what I write, I do it under the assumption that we are simply writing a common story, without PLAYERS TAKING SIDES (characters take sides, not players). I make Lilly a bit of comic relief FOR THE SAKE OF THE INTERESTING STORY. Do you see my point?

I don't understand why some others do not allow their characters make mistakes, or be careless, or be unfortunate. If all the characters are all-knowing, provided with magical spying or prophesizing devices, or simply CONSTANTLY vigilant, then the story becomes DULL.

And in Tolkien's writing it was not the case. Turin had his sword all right in Nargothrond. Why hadn't it warned him of the approaching Glaurung? Why hadn't he had other warnings or foresight?
Turgon must have had watchers on the walls. And eagles helping him. And I bet he had "magic" elven blades aplenty in his realm. Still he was taken by surprise during the celebration.
All the Valar and Maiar have overlooked the approach of Melkor and Ungoliant. What, didn't they have foresight? Or magic devices?

Why King Valandil has to outdo Turgon and Turin and the Valar?

Now Val is the King of the realm, but he is not the one in charge of Tharbad defences: Captain Shah is, and perhaps the Governor Azrabel. Valandil just came to the city as a student a month ago.

[Serenoli]

I agree, actually, I never saw the point in all the balancing of power. All interesting stories have heroes who manage to win in the end against all odds. It was a million-in-one chance that Frodo got to Mount Doom, and a worse chance that Gollum just fell. In fact, Bilbo got the Ring by chance. If both FOEADs and FOGALs have equal chances, we have a deadlock, and no fun. No one wins or lose, its just an endless balance of power. Val's forces immobilise the forces coming to Tharbad, none of the charcters get to participate, in effect, the fight becomes a one-liner, and gets dismissed as such.

And Lily is right, your charcters have to make mistakes, if they don't they don't ring true. It is easier to accept a King who made a mistake, then a wise king who knows everything. Even the Chancellor with all his Nazgul sorceror powers makes mistakes... in LotR it costs him his life... here its just messing up Jas' memory.

[Gordis]

Originally Posted by Serenoli

. And Lily is right, your charcters have to make mistakes, if they don't they don't ring true. It is easier to accept a King who made a mistake, then a wise king who knows everything. Even the Chancellor with all his Nazgul sorceror powers makes mistakes... in LotR it costs him his life... here its just messing up Jas' memory.

Quite right.

Actually the Chancellor made a very bad mistake earlier: he didn't believe the story of the Ring slipping from Isildur's finger and getting lost in the river.

And it was a bad mistake not to "secure" Lilly from the start. Perhaps he has a soft spot for her.

And then, Jas.

No, the ML is not without mistakes, though he knows full well what game he is playing, who the enemy is, and what the stakes are.

The FOGALS, they don't. They simply live in the secure and friendly Arnor. So, naturally, they should be less alert and more prone to mistakes.
Don't you agree???

[Lady Marion Magdalena]

I had actually been viewing it as a combination of game and story. Sort of along the lines of a literary chess game with weirder pieces and more maleable rules.

Should I be thinking simpler? Is it crazy to think that one can play a game and write a story at the same time?

[Rían]

(I said I'd stay out, but I'm changing my mind.)

I don't know what the difference is between game and story. I thought we were writing a story together, with each character owner having the final say about how their character would act, and trying to accomodate other people as far as we can without compromising characters.

To me, it looks like we can still have this pirate raid with some compromises, and I think it would be interesting, but that's just MHO.

What I don't understand is why the FOEADs don't seem to understand that what they are proposing affects Val's character in a huge way. Gor's statement - "They simply live in the secure and friendly Arnor. So, naturally, they should be less alert and more prone to mistakes." certainly applies to MY characters, but a king would be naturally vigilant - that's his job.

I'm not familiar with warfare, either modern or historical, so perhaps that is the reason that to me, 12 ships with about 50 pirates each, and a looted city, seems like a HUGE thing for a king with normal intelligence means to not notice. Am I just wrong here? I"ll be happy to be corrected by anyone with knowledge in this area.

I can see how Val would object to Tharbad being attacked due to lack of diligence on the part of his character, but I certainly hope he would be willing to let it happen due to "unfortunate circumstances" or intentional malice that it is reasonable for his character to not know about. Is that fine with you, Val? How about it being just bad luck - the messenger's horse falling and breaking a leg or some other such device? That certainly happens in real life. Or as far as intentional malice - perhaps the ML having birds of prey circling the city to intercept bird messengers? It certainly would not be the king's fault to not anticipate having the ML in Tharbad, and to therefore not guard against possible ML schemes, and that seems like a reasonable thing for the ML to have done. Or perhaps the ML has spies that found info on Val's defences and had them taken out by assassins? That might be interesting - perhaps Viv could have used her thieving abilities to find that info out. And of course that would make it interesting, too, because the king would have to figure out that someone had inside info in order to do that.

I think the raid is fine and could be very interesting, and compromises can be worked out where the king had been not negligent at all, which from what I can tell is Val's only objection, and which I think is a reasonable one.

The only other concern I have is that the king would leave the university, but perhaps we can come up with some reason for him to stay - he's perhaps suspicious and wants to hang around in the area?

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by RÃ*an

To me, it looks like we can still have this pirate raid with some compromises, and I think it would be interesting, but that's just MHO.

If the pirate raid is a bad idea, I can shelve my part right here. It is not worth it to dicker and debate on a forum about something like this. I would like to write, but what the heck. It is not worth the hassle.

[Rían]

I think it's a good idea.

[Lotesse]

You know, I completely agree with everything that Udu so well stated in his post yesterday. I am absolutely sick and TIRED of all these 20-pages-of-discussion-thread to every 2 posts in RPG thread NONSENSE. I saw all the creative, yet honest reasons almost EVERY SINGLE WRITER here had, during the last week or so, for not being able to post for a few days or longer in the RPG anymore. Who can blame us??? A few times in the past during this RPG I was so very ready to quit writing here, SO ready, for the same crap that crops up every, EVERY single time a writer has the tiniest creative idea to introduce and play with. Frankly, I'm not going to mince my freakin' words anymore - Valandil, WTF??

You know what, SCREW it. I need a much longer break from this "fun writing game." Whatever. See you guys maybe when everyone reconvenes, and it is actually FUN and pleasant, and not some constant ego/creative/canon-Nazi struggle and daily, prolongued discussion after fight, after discussion, after fight...

I'll be back when I feel like it. In the meantime, have fun, Rian and Valandil!!

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Lotesse

In the meantime, have fun, Rian and Valandil!!

This is the thanks I get for trying to work with BOTH sides to make this pirate thing work!? Why don't you read my post directly above your post, Lotesse - the one where I said "I think it's a good idea". And read the multiple ones before that where I said I want the raid to work and was trying to figure out ways to make it work.

You know, I came up with 3 or 4 possible scenarios to make the raid work (my post 3 posts above yours). I thought several of them were quite good and would appease both sides. Why don't you try to come up with some possible scenarios, too, instead of complaining. It would sure be a lot more helpful.

A few times in the past during this RPG I was so very ready to quit writing here, SO ready, for the same crap that crops up every, EVERY single time a writer has the tiniest creative idea to introduce and play with.

Believe me, you're not the only one. Nor are the FOEADs the only ones.



SO - do you guys want to go with any of my suggestions? If not, why don't you make some of your own?

[Rían]

Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf

Rian, Have edited #774. Will the added paragraph do?

Yes, I think your idea is fine

[Rían]

Val - can you live with one of my suggestions in post #469 so we can get this raid going?

[Valandil]

Well - I seem to be out of sync here, and could probably use a more protracted break, so why don't the rest of you just do as you want.

[Gordis]

Val, is it the only answer you can give to so many posts adressed to you?

We were waiting for a long time for you to reappear, and have almost quarreled between us, just because you kept your silence.

What do you think of Earniel's and Rian's suggestions?

What exactly did you want to propose? Please, could you tell us clearly?

Discussing generalities is always unproductive and leads to hurt feelings. Perhaps we were quarrelling for nothing?

[CrazySquirrel]

It looks like here is Sapthan come to see Rian's book, eh, Rian? Their interaction is something I really like to read about!

But I never pictured Sapthan as "slight". I thought he was a tall, powerfully built Numenorean?

TD, I see you are around. Are you going to fill your #754? I don't want to forego my visit to Udu's wonderful ***** new dungeon !

[Udukhaturz]

Originally Posted by CrazySquirrel

But I never pictured Sapthan as "slight". I thought he was a tall, powerfully built Numenorean?

Yes, that is true. The quote about "slight" threw me off a little. I hope Sapthan can get back to the story tomorrow.

[Rían]

oops, I was too lazy to check the formal info thread for his description

Should I keep the "bookish" part, but change the "slight"? Or get rid of the "bookish", too?